Why is Islam so dangerous?

[Road Warrior]

Part of the issue is the population. Hence why occupation was more successful in Japan and Germany

An interesting point. There weren't outside forces instigating rebellion and/or terrorism in Japan and Germany.

 

[Notanumber]

Never heard of Iqra TV..

There are plenty of nutty clerics in Islam and other religions as well.

If we cannot get any sense from these Islamic clerics, it is fortunate that we have scholars of the calibre of David Wood, Robert Spencer and Bill Warner to name but a few.

 

[Shad]

An interesting point. There weren't outside forces instigating rebellion and/or terrorism in Japan and Germany.

I was talking about the regular population. Japan and Germany had major external reasons to remain unified. Both were also subject to the full force on Total War (warfare concept). Iraq was slapped around by a power that is no longer willing to use the same concept of warfare. Both had the cultural past to draw upon beside those that caused the war. Ergo a national identity. A lot of such movements which promoted a national identity in the ME were disrupted due to being socialist or socialist leaning during the Cold War. Religion filled the void or dictators.

Consider the Kurdish Triangle.

 

[Mark Sinista]

If we cannot get any sense from these Islamic clerics, it is fortunate that we have scholars of the calibre of David Wood, Robert Spencer and Bill Warner to name but a few.

This is utterly nonsense. Are you here to preach your superiority over us? spread anti-islamic propaganda? Every one of these scholars purely specialize in anti-islamic movement. I saw my fair share of fox news to see where this is going. Should I start searching google to find some videos of a lunatic from obscure parts of the internet and tell you every sensible things you to say are wrong? You are not here to understand what some sensible muslims here have to say. You are not gonna change your mind no matter what logical things we have to say. what's the point in continuing the discussion with you?

 

[Notanumber]

This is utterly nonsense. Are you here to preach your superiority over us? spread anti-islamic propaganda? Every one of these scholars purely specialize in anti-islamic movement. I saw my fair share of fox news to see where this is going. Should I start searching google to find some videos of a lunatic from obscure parts of the internet and tell you every sensible things you to say are wrong? You are not here to understand what some sensible muslims here have to say. You are not gonna change your mind no matter what logical things we have to say. what's the point in continuing the discussion with you?

I am not forcing you to, but where are these sensible Islamic clerics that can explain things to the same high standards that we have come to expect from David Wood, Robert Spencer and Bill Warner to name but a few?

 

[Mark Sinista]

I am not forcing you to, but where are these sensible Islamic clerics that can explain things to the same high standards that we have come to expect from David Wood, Robert Spencer and Bill Warner to name but a few?

if that's your high standards then I would pray to not have that level of scholars among us.

 

[Notanumber]

if that's your high standards then I would pray to not have that level of scholars among us.

You are not putting anyone forward that is better.

 

[sooda]

If we cannot get any sense from these Islamic clerics, it is fortunate that we have scholars of the calibre of David Wood, Robert Spencer and Bill Warner to name but a few.

LOLOLOL.. Spenser and Warner aren't "scholars".. They are losers earning their living peddling hate.

 

[Mark Sinista]

You are not putting anyone forward that is better.

I refuse to bring myself down to the standard that you have set. I don't to need to show bunch of scholars to prove my point unnecessarily anyway.

 

[sooda]

I was talking about the regular population. Japan and Germany had major external reasons to remain unified. Both were also subject to the full force on Total War (warfare concept). Iraq was slapped around by a power that is no longer willing to use the same concept of warfare. Both had the cultural past to draw upon beside those that caused the war. Ergo a national identity. A lot of such movements which promoted a national identity in the ME were disrupted due to being socialist or socialist leaning during the Cold War. Religion filled the void or dictators.

Consider the Kurdish Triangle.

The US and UK made some idiotic moves in the ME in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s.... Its a miracle that we didn't drive them all into the arms of the Soviets.. Arabs by nature are not communists.. they are merchant and traders... capitalists.

 

[Notanumber]

I refuse to bring myself down to the standard that you have set. I don't to need to show bunch of scholars to prove my point unnecessarily anyway.

David Wood is a brilliant educator, how many of us knew this?

Answering Muslims: How Muhammad Ali Was Deceived by Islam

 

[Mark Sinista]

David Wood is a brilliant educator, how many of us knew this?

He is an educator alright. Making a living out of spreading propaganda and hatred. I feel sad for his students.

 

[Raymann]

As for the religious dimension, Islam is evolving (as it has done throughout its life) - a new enlightenment will come! It's only a matter of time.

That sounds a little scary.

Islam forbids killing anyone unless they attack Muslims and even then the rules of warfare are not what you'd expect.

That sounds very nice and righteous but many Muslims don't care what Islam forbids.
We have already gone through some passages in the Quran that allow the killings of non-Muslims even when they were not attacked.
How many times we have to go through the same things to make you understand that the Quran and Hadith are part of the problem.
The Quran scriptures are very easily manipulated by extremists who use them to recruit jihadists around the world.

ISIS and Boko Haram are disenfranchised groups of ignorant losers, drug addicts, drunks who don't know anything about their religion and they are a far bigger threat to Muslims than they are to us.

Yeah, and who is gonna go and tell them that. They would answer:
Who are you to decide who is a real Muslim?
The extremists would challenge you claiming they are more Muslims than you are.
They would use the same scriptures you use but would interpret them their own way and show you exactly where you are wrong.
That's the problem Islam faces today.
The scriptures are being manipulated way too easily.
Islam doesn't have a central unification entity like the Pope for Christians.
Everyone is allowed to interpret Islam in their own way.
No one can claim which one has the right interpretation.

 

[Mark Sinista]

We have already gone through some passages in the Quran that allow the killings of non-Muslims even when they were not attacked.

Please show us the passages without coming to the conclusion.

How many times we have to go through the same things to make you understand that the Quran and Hadith are part of the problem.

In 2019, despite the unthinkable advancements of Science today, People are believing in flat earth and the vaccines causing autism. There are climate change deniers. We have seen the creation of flat earth society and anti-vaxx community. We are hearing climate change is not man made. This is harming the whole world and putting every human being on earth at risk. We are seeing occurances of lost diseases surfacing again. Science is part of the problem too. The anti-vaxx, flat earth & no climate change supporters are getting their justification from pseudo science.

Should we blame Science and get rid of it altogether?

 

[Raymann]

Please show us the passages without coming to the conclusion.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
Quran 9:29

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Quran 8:39

Raymann said: ↑
How many times we have to go through the same things to make you understand that the Quran and Hadith are part of the problem.

We are hearing climate change is not man made. This is harming the whole world and putting every human being on earth at risk. We are seeing occurances of lost diseases surfacing again. Science is part of the problem too. The anti-vaxx, flat earth & no climate change supporters are getting their justification from pseudo science.
Should we blame Science and get rid of it altogether?

My point: Muslims cannot keep blaming other Muslims for interpreting the Quran and Hadith in a different way.
There must be a reason for the misinterpretation.
You cannot say you're not a Muslim because you don't interpret that verse as I do.
Some kind of reform is needed.
No, I don't suggest to get rid of Islam but I wouldn't hate the idea.

 

[sooda]

That sounds a little scary.


That sounds very nice and righteous but many Muslims don't care what Islam forbids.
We have already gone through some passages in the Quran that allow the killings of non-Muslims even when they were not attacked.
How many times we have to go through the same things to make you understand that the Quran and Hadith are part of the problem.
The Quran scriptures are very easily manipulated by extremists who use them to recruit jihadists around the world.

Yeah, and who is gonna go and tell them that. They would answer:
Who are you to decide who is a real Muslim?
The extremists would challenge you claiming they are more Muslims than you are.
They would use the same scriptures you use but would interpret them their own way and show you exactly where you are wrong.
That's the problem Islam faces today.
The scriptures are being manipulated way too easily.
Islam doesn't have a central unification entity like the Pope for Christians.
Everyone is allowed to interpret Islam in their own way.
No one can claim which one has the right interpretation.

Very few hadiths have been authenticated. Most of them came from Persia 200 years after the death of Muhammed. Your understanding of Islam is closer to ISIS than to the majority of Muslims.

 

[sooda]

That sounds a little scary.


That sounds very nice and righteous but many Muslims don't care what Islam forbids.
We have already gone through some passages in the Quran that allow the killings of non-Muslims even when they were not attacked.
How many times we have to go through the same things to make you understand that the Quran and Hadith are part of the problem.
The Quran scriptures are very easily manipulated by extremists who use them to recruit jihadists around the world.

Yeah, and who is gonna go and tell them that. They would answer:
Who are you to decide who is a real Muslim?
The extremists would challenge you claiming they are more Muslims than you are.
They would use the same scriptures you use but would interpret them their own way and show you exactly where you are wrong.
That's the problem Islam faces today.
The scriptures are being manipulated way too easily.
Islam doesn't have a central unification entity like the Pope for Christians.
Everyone is allowed to interpret Islam in their own way.
No one can claim which one has the right interpretation.

You should probably read those passages in context.

 

[Raymann]

Very few hadiths have been authenticated. Most of them came from Persia 200 years after the death of Muhammed. .

And what that information has anything to do with anything I said?

Your understanding of Islam is closer to ISIS than to the majority of Muslims.

Which is a lot closer to the real Islam than the one you apologists imagine.

You should probably read those passages in context.

We already have in this Thread a few times and the apologists' arguments were not convincing enough to lead us to believe that Muslims need to be attacked before attacking themselves. Use the search bar if you missed those comments.

 

[Mark Sinista]

Yeah, you are pretty much interpreting it wrong.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Quran 9:29

Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him]. [9:36]

Telling them to fight collectively as they fight collectively. Not telling to go around and killing whoever you can find and certainly not spying, assassinating and blowing themselves up and kill innocents. This is pointing towards tactics of warfare.

At-Tabari and other commentators record that this verse was revealed concerning the expedition of Tabuk. The expedition of Tabuk was preceded by the battle of Mu’tah which began when the emissary of the Prophet was assassinated while delivering a letter to a Roman ally.

Allah directly ordered through the Prophet for the Muslims to join. There are extensive talk about the hypocrites who disobeyed direct instruction from the mouth of the Prophet when he was alive. These verses addresses people of that region specifically.

According to Islamic History, no bloodshed actually happened at the expedition of Tabuk. They went to Tabuk, expecting an army to fought against, found no one and returned after few days.

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do..

Quran 8:39

The exact verses before and after.

Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place. [8:38]

But if they turn away - then know that Allah is your protector. Excellent is the protector, and Excellent is the helper. [8:40]

Ignoring all the history aspect and explanation, as I pointed out earlier, Muslims are not allowed to attack non-muslims unless attacked or threatened first. THE RULING STILL STANDS..

My point: Muslims cannot keep blaming other Muslims for interpreting the Quran and Hadith in a different way.
There must be a reason for the misinterpretation.

God sent us Quran as a divine book. Not hadiths. Hadiths are unreliable to say the least. It is based on Chinese whispers. Many of them have been fabricated by the enemies of Islam or changed over time. It is a whole another topic. The Quran again and again talks about mercy, justice, wisdom, good deeds. If one reads and studies the Quran from start to finish, there should be no problem in understanding its philosophy. It is easy to understand and easy to follow as a guidance or way of life for the Muslims.

You cannot say you're not a Muslim because you don't interpret that verse as I do.
Some kind of reform is needed.

Those retards of ISIS may call themselves the real Muslims and win an argument through brute force and threat, but against voice of reason and wisdom, they will lose every single time. And since when did idiots understood reason anyway.

No, I don't suggest to get rid of Islam but I wouldn't hate the idea.

It is no wonder at this point you wouldn't hate it. I would say you would cherish the idea.

But let me tell you something, if you blame the teachings of the sacred text of a religion and want to get rid of it, accusing it of being violent; The Bible and the Torah will have to go before the Quran.

 

[Notanumber]

Most Muslims just rely on what their clerics tell them about Islam.