Why Is Jesus As A Sacrifice OK?

[Faithofchristian]

What about Abraham? Whether it was stopped or not... he did command it. Or Pharaoh's son and the firstborn of Egypt? Those could be considered taken human sacrifices too.

First of all what Abraham did by offering up his son Isaac, was to point people ahead That God the Father would offer up his Son in sacrifice for the sins of the world.

As for the son of the Pharaoh of Egypt.
The Pharaoh of Egypt was going to have all the first born male children of Israel put to death.

But as it turned out, it was the first born of Egypt that died. Starting with the Pharaoh of Egypt first.

Therefore for people to think, to mess with God's people, God will turn it around on those who think that way.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

G-d never commanded that. That man promised to sacrifice the first thing to come from his house on his return. That happened to be his daughter. G-d had no say and never approved it.

An omnipotent being can't say "Jesus, are you for real?" Requests can be DENIED, you know.

Right.That's why I called it a near miss. Yes, it was a test. I once read that Abraham actually failed the test because instead of refusing outright to sacrifice Isaac, and show his steadfastness, he gave in. No idea if that's a true reading.

Probably not, but it's one I prefer over the actual moral. Morality means squat if you're not willing to defend it.

No human on earth as a descendant of Adam was 'perfect', 'sinless'.

Neither was Jesus.

Adam's children were in bondage to sin and death through no fault on their part

And yet the saved still sin and die.

Abraham was not supposed to say "no". It was a command...not a option.

So, morality can be tossed aside like a broken pencil if God tells you to? Morality, the very thing that determines what God is going to make us do for eternity, is ultimately worthless? If a guy in a lab coat tells you to fry someone else, you will? I mean, sure, the lesser voltage ain't gonna hurt nobody, but the experiments showed that "good" people were willing to toast people to ash, so to speak, all because "authority said so".

Me? I will gladly go to hell for defending morality. Better to be a saint in hell than a monster in heaven.

Why could Abraham offer his son in this way?

Because his culture was fine with it.

Because he knew that all the promises made concerning the future of mankind had to come through Isaac.

An omnipotent being can't just make a new Isaac? I mean, Ishmael was born first. Just save the world through him instead.

That is true faith.....absolute trust in his God and in his promises. He believed in God's ability to raise his son back to life.

Now, I haven't read the story recently. Do we get any internal monologuing by Abe to confirm this theory?

It was a test however, and one that was passed with flying colors. Isaac was about 25 years old at the time, so his aged father would not have been able to offer him as an unwilling sacrifice.

You'd be surprised. Wasn't Isaac carrying all the supplies? His hands were full. One knock on the noggin and he's a goner.

the "burnt offering" was figurative.

He ROASTED HIS DAUGHTER.

What a woman!

I thought a grown or mostly grown woman wouldn't have been able to be an unwilling sacrifice. What choice did she have? Sure, she could run off. It's not like they can track her credit card records or anything. Still, women couldn't tell men "no". The bible permits parents to off any disruptive child. It's why you're threatened with death if you don't honor your parents. You make 'em, you can break 'em.

She was visited by her friends for 4 days every year.

No, they are honoring her memory. She died. It's like Martin Luther King Jr day. You don't make a mourning holiday over someone who didn't die.

It was voluntary

The Romans didn't ask his permission before killing him. There were lots of times when his life was in danger and he RAN AWAY, an option taken by many of his followers as well. "Sacrifice" apparently means "couldn't outrun the cops forever".

Who said? No one in Israel could be both a King and a Priest yet Jesus was said to be both after the manner of Melchizedek.

You might find this book fascinating. It's poorly formatted and the grammar's clunky, but it delves into the details of the political realities of Jews around the time of Jesus.

His life was said to be a "ransom".....so what is a ransom? Isn't it the price you pay for what you think the captive is worth to the one being asked to pay it?

I've seen enough action movies to know you kill the people you paid the ransom to and then take the money back.

Just because he was human didn't make him sinful.

No, all the immoral things he did made him sinful:
1. Dishonoring parents
2. Vandalizing/destroying things that don't belong to him, including livestock
3. Bigotry
4. Hypocrisy
5. Pride

God already knew that there were no righteous people in Sodom except Lot and his family.

Lot wasn't moral. Lot is being saved because God and Abe are besties, meaning God cares little about morality and more about "who you know".

God is never unjust or unrighteous in his judgments.

The Book of Job shows us otherwise. He flat out says He is doing this without reason. It's right there in the text.

Keep in mind, Jesus was willing to offer Himself — he wasn’t forced.

He didn't go hopping over to the Romans going "kill me now".

For one thing, no finite human could pay such a price for all the sins of humanity to the infinite God, so God Himself came to pay the price which only He could do on behalf of humanity.

Or He could just forgive them, for they know not what they do. An omnipotent being sure seems to have a lot of plot hoops to jump through to do what should be rather simple.

As I said, it is a fundamental Christian teaching contained in the NT.

And the teaching doesn't go along with what was actually going on, making it false.

Perhaps we could illustrate it this way.....supposing an enemy had a gun pointed at your dearly loved wife or child....and you stepped in front of them to take the bullet. Would you be considered a fool or a hero? Jesus took the 'bullet' aimed at us. He loved us that much.

A heroic fool. The gunman may have more than one bullet or that one bullet may go through his skull and STILL kill his family behind him.

Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

So Jesus wasn't special and they were just killing all the firstborn kids anyway?

You know God doesn't make mistakes.

Then why does He regret things in the bible?

God looks on the heart of the offerer. God doesn't need the offering.

Then why do it?

God can't read a human heart unless blood is sprayed all over a room?

Pharaoh's son and the firstborn of Egypt was a punishment on Egypt.

An immoral one. What did the newborns do? The livestock? Did the cows insult Hebrews or something?

We will for it is the Gospel of Salvation through Christ

Didn't know we could be saved by falsehoods. That's a new one.

First of all what Abraham did by offering up his son Isaac, was to point people ahead That God the Father would offer up his Son in sacrifice for the sins of the world.

And like Isaac, gets out of it entirely.

 

[Sleeppy]

It was prophesied irony.

Anytime you kill, you sacrifice. Human sacrifice is an ongoing thing.

 

[74x12]

I'm well aware of that, but you mistake my point. If there are multiple stories all throughout the Old Testament - the Hebrew bible - where the god of Abraham is commanding or accepting human sacrifices, why would Jesus' sacrifice not be just as much accepted?

It was accepted.

Ásgarðr is also the world of the Æsir; we worship them, not their world.

Yes, well you call Athenians by the name of their city also.

I know quite the opposite. Your myth of the Garden of Eden shows very grave errors being made.

I don't see it that way.

As told in the bible, that whole situation is just pettiness on Moses' god's behalf. Did you know that Pharaoh was fully willing to let the Hebrews go after the first couple of plagues? He was going to send them on their way, until your god made his mind up the opposite for him. It's a sticky wicket either way, but the Pharaoh knew what the cost was in saying "no" that final time.

Pharaoh kept changing his mind about letting them go because he was so proud as to believe himself equal with God. Pharaoh was considered the god of all Egypt while he lived. He was actually believed to be filled with the spirit of Osiris or Horus(I can't remember which). Apparently, this was in Pharaoh's mind unbearable that another God could best him in anyway. So although he kept getting beaten; he would change his mind after a little while. He even changed his mind after his firstborn died and after they had left and he pursued them to the Red Sea.

Yes God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but when you consider he was evil to begin with. How he treated his slaves etc. Then what's the issue? It was just God's way of judging Pharaoh and Egypt. Their time to pay up on their debts had come around.

What's more, since Jesus allegedly rose from the dead, nothing was lost. In fact, as the story goes, he got more powerful through death, so really nothing was lost. Sacrifices are when something is lost or given up for good and final. What did Jesus loose or give up in such a manner?

His Life in the flesh. Although He rose after 3 days He had to ascend into heaven. He lost out on the rest of whatever human experience He would have had. As Jesus nature was God's nature we assume that it pains God to see anything He created die. Jesus experienced mental pain at the thought of putting His own body to death; even though He knew He had to. Also, we can't consider the pain and humiliation of His death to be nothing.
Finally, Jesus asks nothing more from us than what He did. So, although He rose from the dead (Cheating death). He promises the same to those who believe Him.

What do you think of how Odin was supposedly hung on the world tree 9 days? What do you make of it? Is that a real sacrifice to himself? Although I think Odin worshipers obviously made this story up to counter Missionaries because they could not say Odin loved them as much as Jesus loved people. Still, if you believe in Odin then you must think that he did die on the world tree. So if you think that's a sacrifice; then it is a double standard for you not to believe Jesus made a real sacrifice to Himself.

 

[74x12]

Then why does He regret things in the bible?

Because love. Besides, Although God knows all things in the future. Yet, He works with people(who He knows will fail) as if they had a chance, because He's fair. So for example, God made Saul king and God knew Saul would fail. But, in the mean time God dealt with Saul fairly but when Saul did fail; then God said He repents his decision to make Saul king. In other words, God is not saying He was wrong to make Saul king. But that it is now(Present tense) wrong for Saul to continue being king. That's a big difference.

Then why do it?

God can't read a human heart unless blood is sprayed all over a room?

It's about developing fruit. Ever heard the phrase "No pain, no gain"?
Secondly, it all goes back when God promised Adam would "surely die" if he sinned by eating the fruit. Since that time it's taken blood(the life is in the blood) to atone. Jesus blood was the ultimate atonement.

An immoral one. What did the newborns do? The livestock? Did the cows insult Hebrews or something?

God gives, God takes away as Job said then Job blessed the Lord even though He does this. God gave the children; God can take the children also because the parents were punished. Besides which; God gave fair warning to the Egyptians they refused to listen even though they saw all the previous plagues. It is not immoral.

 

[InChrist]

Or He could just forgive them, for they know not what they do. An omnipotent being sure seems to have a lot of plot hoops to jump through to do what should be rather simple.

I don't think an omnipotent God whose Nature includes love, as well as justice, can just forgive them. It would not be loving, nor would it be just. Why should an abusive person or a terrorist or any other sinner whose behavior harms themselves or others be forgiven, if they have no remorse desire to repent, change, or stop such harmful behavior?

 

[idav]

So Jesus wasn't special and they were just killing all the firstborn kids anyway?

In that context it is at least consistent and non-hypocritical that God be willing to sacrifice his own first born son, and interesting that it’s a final sacrifice so that sacrifice is no longer needed. It is strange but consistent. The symbolism being that the son washes away sins, as sacrifices did from ancient days, therefore being a path to eternal life. I don’t really take that literal though, it sounds too much like a zombie or vampire flick, I’ve never been sure what God needs with all that blood wine and vegetables. Archaic and primitive comes to mind.

 

[Grandliseur]

So Jesus no longer has a soul.

This is where the definition of a soul comes into the picture. While many teach that the soul is something that survives death of the body and lives on keeping the person's ability to think, feel, on some metaphysical level, none can explain how happens without a body. The Bible's definition is simpler.

Please read my short study on this: link: Truth Seeker - Soul--Immortal? Animals?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Can we really say Adam was a perfect human, having disobeyed God?

Yes, I think we can, because Adam according to the Bible was a direct creation of God. So was Eve. They were part of His “activity”, which is “perfect”.(Deuteronomy 32:4) Becoming disobedient was a choice. It highlights their ability to exercise their free will.

As perfect, intelligent creatures, they were inclined to obey authority....as opposed to us, who many times challenge authority.

So, why did Adam seem to easily disobey? Because his wife had been deceived and had already eaten from it, and he didn’t want to lose his precious wife. So he joined her. He was not deceived, though.

It wasn’t easy for him. He had to force himself to disobey.

Take care. Hope you’ll have a good evening.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yes God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but when you consider he was evil to begin with. How he treated his slaves etc.

The funny thing is, slaves didn't do all that massive building and workers were paid and could go on strike when being mistreated financially or otherwise. Egypt had more rights than Israel.

So for example, God made Saul king and God knew Saul would fail. But, in the mean time God dealt with Saul fairly but when Saul did fail; then God said He repents his decision to make Saul king.

The authors who liked David more made God say that. God was all on board with picking the most horrible person imaginable to be king because He hoped the people would stop wanting a monarchy.

It's about developing fruit. Ever heard the phrase "No pain, no gain"?

This is God we're talking about, not a mortal.

Secondly, it all goes back when God promised Adam would "surely die" if he sinned by eating the fruit.

But he didn't.

God gives, God takes away as Job said then Job blessed the Lord even though He does this.

And yet John the Baptist said God can make boot lickers out of rocks. Job doesn't have many options. It's not like he can go over God's head for his utter mistreatment.

God gave the children; God can take the children also because the parents were punished.

Do you believe you can kill your kids because you made them? Do you go around smashing all the stuff in your house because it's yours and you can do whatever you want? Is God eternal or 2 years old?

Besides which; God gave fair warning to the Egyptians they refused to listen even though they saw all the previous plagues.

And they listened. So, God, a lover of massive special effects, hardened Pharaoh's heart so He could make huge disasters anyway.

Why should an abusive person or a terrorist or any other sinner whose behavior harms themselves or others be forgiven, if they have no remorse desire to repent, change, or stop such harmful behavior?

They are a danger to us, which is why we punish them. The worst serial killer cannot damage God in any way. Besides, even sinners can treat well those who treat them well. God is supposed to be better than that, right?

 

[Skwim]

It was prophesied irony.

Anytime you kill, you sacrifice. Human sacrifice is an ongoing thing.

.

 

[blü 2]

Why is it alright in the Christian religion for Jesus to be a human sacrifice when all throughout Tanach G-d dismays of such practices and does not command them?

That's not quite right.
1.
Genesis 22:9+ says God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham didn't think for a moment that God was joking. The event was cancelled at the last minute, but that was arbitrary.
2.
And in Judges 11:29+ we have the actual sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, the result of a deal carefully spelt out in the text between God and Jephthah; indeed the text says it was God's idea.
3.
In 2 Samuel 21 God imposes a famine, and only lifts it after the bloodguilt of the late King Saul regarding the Gibeonites is expiated by the death by impaling 'before the Lord' of seven of Saul's sons.
4.
In Jonah 1 Jonah, fleeing from God, tells the boatmen to save themselves by throwing him overboard. This they refuse to do, so God makes sure their peril continues until finally they do. This ends up like the Abraham and Isaac tale, without a death, but in both cases God clearly demands one, and no one thinks it's a joke.
5.
Then of course we have the four gospels, in which God sacrifices his son to himself. Only in Mark (1:10) does Jesus' status as son arise in the Jewish way, by adoption (Psalm 2:7is specifically mentioned, but 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalm 89:26 are also to the point). In (Matthew and) Luke Jesus is, in the manner of Greek gods, the son of God by insemination. But regardless he sets out to die for the cause (Mark 2:20) and does so, greatly pleasing God and greatly puzzling readers like me,

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

First of all what Abraham did by offering up his son Isaac, was to point people ahead That God the Father would offer up his Son in sacrifice for the sins of the world.

That sounds like Christian back-tracking to me.

As for the son of the Pharaoh of Egypt. The Pharaoh of Egypt was going to have all the first born male children of Israel put to death.

No. Nowhere in Exodus does it say this.

It was accepted.

Not by Jews, and not by the topic of this thread; Jesus' death from a Jewish perspective.

Yes, well you call Athenians by the name of their city also.

Ásgarðr means "Land of the Æsir". Not that it's terribly relevant (and I don't know why you're railing against this particular correction), but my clarification still stands that we do not worship the land of them; we worship the Æsir (among others).

I don't see it that way.

Irrelevant. Putting the Tree in the Garden of Eden, in such close proximity to the possibility of temptation, was a mistake. A grave mistake. Furthermore compounded in that your god (according to the myths) knew exactly what would happen with everything, and yet still set it in motion. It is no test for Adam and Eve when he knows what they would do. The Serpent's tempting of Eve doesn't absolve his error when he allowed for that conversation to take place. And the Tree is still his mistake because he put it there.

Pharaoh kept changing his mind about letting them go

No, your god kept changing his mind for him. There are several points in the myth where your god states that he will do so, claims responsibility for doing so, and where it is clearly narrated that your god toyed with the Pharaoh (and his people's) minds and wills. You even acknowledge this later on in this post.

Also as a point of clarity a Pharaoh was not considered a god, so much as the son or daughter of the gods; Ra and Isis specifically.

Yes God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but when you consider he was evil to begin with. How he treated his slaves etc. Then what's the issue? It was just God's way of judging Pharaoh and Egypt. Their time to pay up on their debts had come around.

The conditions of the mythical Hebrew slaves is never elaborated upon. Charlton Heston hardly makes for biblical accuracy. So you don't really have much to go on in saying that the Pharaoh was "evil." Seems to me that the evil being in that myth is the one who keeps his own people in bondage just to prove a point. Either way you split it - even with your "he was evil, so what?" narrative - your last statement of "debts coming due" still makes the final plague a human sacrifice; just one that rather than being given was taken.

His Life in the flesh. Although He rose after 3 days He had to ascend into heaven.

And yet he rose and ascended body and soul. And will supposedly return again, in the flesh. Seems like flesh wasn't really lost out on. It's also a non-point to say that he sacrificed "the rest of his human experience", as his whole reason for being was to die on the cross. He wasn't there to grow old with ol' Mary Magdalene and have a brood of demi-demi-gods; he was there to teach, suffer, and die. Mission accomplished, but hardly a sacrifice.

Also if he's one-and-the-same as god his father, there's nothing stopping him from either knowing or experiencing a human experience. So again, nothing lost. No sacrifice.

What do you think of how Odin was supposedly hung on the world tree 9 days? What do you make of it? Is that a real sacrifice to himself? Although I think Odin worshipers obviously made this story up to counter Missionaries

Myths of Odin hanging from Yggdrasil pre-date Christian missionaries. You're free to think what you want, but you're wrong.

Neither was Odin hanging from Yggdrasil the sacrifice that he made; that was his eye, to Mímisbrunnr - the Well of Mímir - and of which he did not recover it. Thereafter he is One-Eyed. It is often said (contemporarily) that Odin hanging from the limbs of Yggdrasil was a sacrifice, but I make of it this is wrong. What is written of the account is thus:

I know that I hung | on the windy tree,
Hung there for nights full nine;
With the spear I was wounded, | and offered I was
To Odin, myself to myself,
On the tree that none | may ever know
What root beneath it runs.

~Hávamál s.139

I make of this that after securing the peace between Æsir and Vanir, Odin devoted his time to himself - giving himself to himself, rather than his people - so that he might learn the mysteries of the runes.

Still, if you believe in Odin then you must think that he did die on the world tree.

Nothing about the account says that he died. After nine days and nights, he grasped the secrets of the runes and fell from the World Tree.

 

[Edna Davidsen]

The Bible is filled with stories about violence and death.

But there's a definite connection between culture and context.

The violence and death, anger etc. are massively placed at the first part of the Bible.

When we come to the new testament, we see a much more loving and caring God.

This is worth thinking about.

Many Christians (I'm a Christian myself) read the Bible as if it was the only book worth reading in the world.

It's evident that we must take the context into account when we try to understand the Bible, also why Jesus Christ sacrificed Himself.

 

[InChrist]

They are a danger to us, which is why we punish them. The worst serial killer cannot damage God in any way. Besides, even sinners can treat well those who treat them well. God is supposed to be better than that, right?

According to the scriptures all sin is against God, so the harm people do to others is damaging to God because He loves His creation. What would your feelings on the matter be if you had a neighbor who was continually cruel and intimidating your children, poisoning your pets, or trashing your garden? I don't think you understand some situations where individuals can be truly so absorbed with self that they have no concern about the pain or abuse they cause to others...dosen't matter how nice or well their targeted victim(s) may be treating them. Besides, I believe God has an eternity planned where peace and love is the norm and those who choose to exalt themselves over others, use and abuse others will not be there because to allow them there would only disrupt and destroy the environment God has for those who desire to live in His eternal Love.

 

[Lunarious]

Never understood sacrifices. I don't think God has need of anything, least of all of sacrificing himself in some form.

Why is it alright in the Christian religion for Jesus to be a human sacrifice when all throughout Tanach G-d dismays of such practices and does not command them?

Islam says Jesus didn't die at the cross. He endured pain yes, but didn't die. IMO because he was a Believer since childhood of course. We Believe in many Jesuses (Believers) and they carry the burden together. I don't think Christians are able to produce Jesuses. But Muslims can. Our religion is called Islam and not belief because Jesus is an official.

Capter 49: . Only those are Believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and have never since doubted, but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of Allah: Such are the sincere ones

Chapter 108: . Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.

 

[74x12]

Not by Jews, and not by the topic of this thread; Jesus' death from a Jewish perspective.

I thought you meant did God accept the sacrifice or not. The fact is some Jews did accept it. If you read the book of Acts you know that early on the entire following of Jesus the first "Christians" were all Jews. Even more Jews would have accepted it no doubt if the chief priest and his faction as well as some leading Rabbis weren't so opposed to Jesus.

Ásgarðr means "Land of the Æsir". Not that it's terribly relevant (and I don't know why you're railing against this particular correction), but my clarification still stands that we do not worship the land of them; we worship the Æsir (among others).

I wasn't railing. Did I come across as railing? I meant the dwellers in Asgard; rather than Asgard itself. So I could say "America" for example talking about American people. I did not mean to offend you.

Irrelevant. Putting the Tree in the Garden of Eden, in such close proximity to the possibility of temptation, was a mistake. A grave mistake. Furthermore compounded in that your god (according to the myths) knew exactly what would happen with everything, and yet still set it in motion. It is no test for Adam and Eve when he knows what they would do. The Serpent's tempting of Eve doesn't absolve his error when he allowed for that conversation to take place. And the Tree is still his mistake because he put it there.

You hit on it yourself. Yes God knew everything would happen and still set it in motion. It definitely wasn't a mistake on His part. The purpose of God is hard to see right now because we're still in the creation phase. God is not finished yet. The creation is on going. When it's finished then everything will be made clear. For now, it was necessary that evil came into existence so that good could come into being. For example it's good to show mercy and help someone. But if there was no need for help; then you could not show mercy.

Just like Adam and Eve were tested, we're all tested. Our condition is really not so different than their's. This reality is passing away. The law of entropy tells us that. There is an eternal reality that is more important. God seeks good fruit for His final creation when evil will be gone(because it has served its' purpose).

No, your god kept changing his mind for him. There are several points in the myth where your god states that he will do so, claims responsibility for doing so, and where it is clearly narrated that your god toyed with the Pharaoh (and his people's) minds and wills. You even acknowledge this later on in this post.

He didn't mess with their heads. What happens is because of the judgment of God; God gives permission to evil spirits that will convince people. (Such as in 1 Kings 22:22) This is not God's normal way of doing things. He does this when He is judging someone. They've been warned and their time has finally come. This is most likely what is meant here about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart.

Also as a point of clarity a Pharaoh was not considered a god, so much as the son or daughter of the gods; Ra and Isis specifically.

That is true they were considered son/daughter of the gods, but also a literal god incarnate of Egypt. It involved a magical ritual in which they became (I think it was) Osiris in the flesh. Osiris was the son of Horus. I'm just going off memory here.

For example when Alexander the great was made Pharaoh of Egypt; they considered him to be Amon if my memory serves me ...

The conditions of the mythical Hebrew slaves is never elaborated upon. Charlton Heston hardly makes for biblical accuracy. So you don't really have much to go on in saying that the Pharaoh was "evil." Seems to me that the evil being in that myth is the one who keeps his own people in bondage just to prove a point. Either way you split it - even with your "he was evil, so what?" narrative - your last statement of "debts coming due" still makes the final plague a human sacrifice; just one that rather than being given was taken.

The Bible says that Pharaoh ordered all the male children of the Israelites to be drowned. That's evil. You might argue we don't know it was the same Pharaoh, but at the very least the Pharaoh then was the one who took their straw but yet demanded the same quota of bricks be made. The Israelites were already doing all the work they could. If they did not fulfill the quota, no doubt they were beaten or possibly killed. That's not very nice.

And yet he rose and ascended body and soul. And will supposedly return again, in the flesh. Seems like flesh wasn't really lost out on. It's also a non-point to say that he sacrificed "the rest of his human experience", as his whole reason for being was to die on the cross. He wasn't there to grow old with ol' Mary Magdalene and have a brood of demi-demi-gods; he was there to teach, suffer, and die. Mission accomplished, but hardly a sacrifice.

I believe it was a huge sacrifice just being tortured to death. But, besides that maybe you're misunderstanding the concept of a sacrifice. The modern idea of a sacrifice is a "loss" right? And, although most sacrifices are indeed a loss. One of the main biblical sacrifices was to make atonement. There were "free will offerings" where an Israelite just vowed a sacrifice for whatever reason and gave it. But, the most important sacrifices for the whole nation were for atonement once a year and also the Passover lamb. So the whole point of Jesus sacrifice was not so much to suffer permanent loss; it was to make a better kind of atonement than the blood of Lambs or goats could.

Also if he's one-and-the-same as god his father, there's nothing stopping him from either knowing or experiencing a human experience. So again, nothing lost. No sacrifice.

Yes, God knows all. However, without coming Himself; He cannot say He's done it. He can only say He knows it.

Myths of Odin hanging from Yggdrasil pre-date Christian missionaries. You're free to think what you want, but you're wrong.

Neither was Odin hanging from Yggdrasil the sacrifice that he made; that was his eye, to Mímisbrunnr - the Well of Mímir - and of which he did not recover it. Thereafter he is One-Eyed. It is often said (contemporarily) that Odin hanging from the limbs of Yggdrasil was a sacrifice, but I make of it this is wrong. What is written of the account is thus:

I know that I hung | on the windy tree,
Hung there for nights full nine;
With the spear I was wounded, | and offered I was
To Odin, myself to myself,
On the tree that none | may ever know
What root beneath it runs.

~Hávamál s.139

I make of this that after securing the peace between Æsir and Vanir, Odin devoted his time to himself - giving himself to himself, rather than his people - so that he might learn the mysteries of the runes.

In the account you see Odin clearly was "offered" to Odin. A ritual offering is normally understood to be a sacrifice.

Nothing about the account says that he died. After nine days and nights, he grasped the secrets of the runes and fell from the World Tree.

Alright. But, he still made himself an "offering" to himself.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Yes God knew everything would happen and still set it in motion. It definitely wasn't a mistake on His part.

What makes it a mistake on his part is blaming mankind for erring when he both knew they would err and that it was unavoidable. Considering the nature of Adam and Eve at the time, they were as putty in the hands of higher powers; they had no concept of right or wrong, no knowledge of what sin or disobedience was, and cannot justly be blamed for their actions - not even by an allegedly "all-powerful" being.

Then there's also several mentions in the bible of your god regretting (an emotion of acknowledging a mistake made) his creations, especially in Genesis when he regrets it so much that he wipes the slate (almost) clean. Then a couple instances in Exodus, and even Jesus makes mention of despair and doubt.

For now, it was necessary that evil came into existence so that good could come into being.

No, I don't think so. Well before the Serpent and that fruit, "And he saw that it was good."

He didn't mess with their heads.

I could start pulling verses, time-consuming though it is, but yes he did. Several mentions of him forcing the will of the Pharaoh (messing with his head,) and even a mention of how he turned the Egyptian people's favor to that of Moses.

The Bible says that Pharaoh ordered all the male children of the Israelites to be drowned. That's evil.

Where? A chapter and verse would be helpful. I am also curious as to why that's evil, but drowning the entire world, murdering every single firstborn - human and beast - of Egypt, etc etc is not. Just because it's a god doing it doesn't make it just or good.

the Pharaoh then was the one who took their straw but yet demanded the same quota of bricks be made. The Israelites were already doing all the work they could. If they did not fulfill the quota, no doubt they were beaten or possibly killed. That's not very nice.

There is zero mention of how hard the Hebrews worked or what their "quota" was - and worse for your case, there's absolutely no historical or archeological record - so this is just pure extrapolation.

I believe it was a huge sacrifice just being tortured to death. But, besides that maybe you're misunderstanding the concept of a sacrifice. The modern idea of a sacrifice is a "loss" right?

The modern idea - lacking as it is - of a sacrifice is giving up soda and foul language for a week, before diving right back in after yearly holiday obligations.

"Just being tortured to death" is hardly a sacrifice, either, when nothing was lost. Nothing was given up by Jesus. Even in sacrifices of atonement, something was lost or given up.

In the account you see Odin clearly was "offered" to Odin.

Not so clearly. Tell me, what would you think "battle-sweat" is? What about the phrase "battle-fish in the hawk's perch"?

Alright. But, he still made himself an "offering" to himself.

In much the same way that a student devoting time to studying "offers" themselves to themselves. Hardly what one would call a sacrifice.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

According to the scriptures all sin is against God, so the harm people do to others is damaging to God because He loves His creation.

How many bandages does He need for all the owwies?

What would your feelings on the matter be if you had a neighbor who was continually cruel and intimidating your children, poisoning your pets, or trashing your garden?

I would feel what many humans would feel. However, I can't tell God whom to admit into heaven. Grace, and all that.

I don't think you understand some situations where individuals can be truly so absorbed with self that they have no concern about the pain or abuse they cause to others...dosen't matter how nice or well their targeted victim(s) may be treating them.

Honey, I grew up in an abusive household. I was bullied at home and at school. My parents continue to this day to be narcissistic sociopaths. If anything, I deserve my outlook.

Besides, I believe God has an eternity planned where peace and love is the norm and those who choose to exalt themselves over others, use and abuse others will not be there because to allow them there would only disrupt and destroy the environment God has for those who desire to live in His eternal Love.

Your God apparently can't "save". Mine can. I don't have to LIKE it, but God's supposed to be able to save people, IIRC.

The Bible says that Pharaoh ordered all the male children of the Israelites to be drowned. That's evil. You might argue we don't know it was the same Pharaoh, but at the very least the Pharaoh then was the one who took their straw but yet demanded the same quota of bricks be made. The Israelites were already doing all the work they could. If they did not fulfill the quota, no doubt they were beaten or possibly killed. That's not very nice.

And the documentation by the Egyptians for all this is ... where?

Do you believe Germans ate children just because WW2 America said they did?

 

[DanielR]

how about we talk about all the animals that have been sacrificed to this egomanical despot?? those poor lambs

let's be honest YHVH would be the Trump of the gods