Why is religious faith considered a virtue?

[Meow Mix]

People without faith may not value it, but they sure are curious about it. This thread is a good example.

I'm curious about astrology too, in the same sense that a kid might poke a rabid dog through a cage.

Harsh analogy but what I mean is that we're curious about it because it seems so irrational to us, we want to know what people might know about it that we don't. We don't often get real answers though.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Biblically, what you offer for a definition of faith is not consistent with Scripture. This is the only thing I've found in the Bible that defines virtue:
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Phillipians 4:8 KJV

Why talk about faith with people who are contemptuous of it? What's the purpose?

 

[Midnight Pete]

I'm curious about astrology too, in the same sense that a kid might poke a rabid dog through a cage.

Harsh analogy but what I mean is that we're curious about it because it seems so irrational to us, we want to know what people might know about it that we don't. We don't often get real answers though.

You get real answers all the time, but reject them because they don't fit with what you already know. If it's something you don't already understand, you reject it.

 

[Meow Mix]

You get real answers all the time, but reject them because they don't fit with what you already know. If it's something you don't already understand, you reject it.

That isn't true. There are such things as invalid answers. I accept new information all the time if it's reasonable.

 

[Orias]

You get real answers all the time, but reject them because they don't fit with what you already know. If it's something you don't already understand, you reject it.

That seems to be the case with most Atheists. They go into debate already denying what you have to offer. Which is just silly

That isn't true. There are such things as invalid answers. I accept new information all the time if it's reasonable.

If it wasn't reasonable then I don't think it would of been put onto the table. Reason varies among logic, for different things are reasonable to different people.

One thing is for sure, all things are reasonable, because they are all expressions of what we truly are and what we are part of.

 

[Meow Mix]

That seems to be the case with most Atheists. They go into debate already denying what you have to offer. Which is just silly



If it wasn't reasonable then I don't think it would of been put onto the table. Reason varies among logic, for different things are reasonable to different people.

One thing is for sure, all things are reasonable, because they are all expressions of what we truly are and what we are part of.

Not all things are reasonable. If there is one reality, then there are some things that are true and some things that are false. NONE of us might know what's true, but it doesn't take a lot to look at two contradictory things and say "They can't BOTH be true at the same time and in the same respect."

 

[Midnight Pete]

That isn't true. There are such things as invalid answers. I accept new information all the time if it's reasonable.

But it's never reasonable. And all the answers you get turn out to be invalid because you find ways to *make* them invalid. It's weapons-grade stubborness.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Arrogant much? How do you know that you are only seeing good because you are looking with the wrong "eyes?" Please tell me why you think god is so obvious, and why if it is, so many intelligent people throughout history have either a) not seen any reason to think there is one (and this includes non-theist religions, such as Buddhism, not just atheism) or b) seen a different one than the one you think is there.

A. This one is very easy. People do not see God because they don't look. I have said this already. It is also worth noting that many intelligent people, though they say God doesn't exist, or there is no reason for God to exist, actually find God in the process.

B. This one is also fairly easy to answer. You believe Buddhism to be different that Christianity. I do not. Religion as a whole is the same. Details are different, paths are different, but they all end up in the same place. God has many faces, about 6 billion or so. Just because one group sees him/her/it differently than another doesn't mean its not the same thing.

Are you serious? If there is no reason to believe either way, then why believe either way? What is there to "accept?" Some of us like having a reason to do something or believe something.

All of us like it, actually. It makes life easier and safer.
If you have a choice between three doors and all you know is that they are called A, B and C, and you have to chose one, what does it matter which you chose? They are all effectively the same.
I think by now, we have more information about these doors, which makes us shy away from one or the other. Still, we can change that anytime we want. What it means...well that's up to you.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Not all things are reasonable. If there is one reality, then there are some things that are true and some things that are false. NONE of us might know what's true, but it doesn't take a lot to look at two contradictory things and say "They can't BOTH be true at the same time and in the same respect."

You have all the answers already. So why ask questions?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But it's never reasonable.

Exactly, hence why Meow Mix is an atheist.

And all the answers you get turn out to be invalid because you find ways to *make* them invalid. It's weapons-grade stubborness.

No, it's not. It's called rational inquiry. Don't blame us just because your beliefs don't hold up to it.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I see this as a cop-out. ETERNITY of a soul is not some will-nilly wishy washy game of "Oh let me create this world and make my existence so vague that not even half of the population ends up believing the same thing about me and then BURN all the ones who get it wrong, tee hee!"

I can understand if this is your perception of heaven and hell, but I would ask why you still think this, even though you say this afterword:

I question the sanity of people who believe in such a being -- I really do. I'm not sure I'd trust turning my back to someone who can tolerate such malevolence, no -- who REVERE such malevolence. It's revolting. Unless I'm wrong about what people believe, but some people seem to believe exactly that. (I know all theists don't, but can you explain how my perception is wrong from what you've said?)

If you think it is insane to think the eternity of a soul is a wishy-washy game, you are correct. It is insane. Yet you still have this definition. Why not abandon it? Why do you persistently cling to this insane idea, saying that this is why you don't believe in God (or one of the reasons you don't anyway). Do you not trust yourself enough to form your own perception?

I see this argument a lot from people and I always wonder why they keep such insane ideas. For the church, it's political. It's about obedience. It's about keeping the peons in line. And if you want to be a peon, you keep this idea going. Personally, I don't want to be a peon, so I got rid of the stupid idea. But that's just me...

 

[tomato1236]

What is virtuous about holding something to be true without evidence or reason? What reasons are there for acclaiming such a thing? Because I have never heard any, and I can't think of one.

Edit: I suppose I might as well throw forward a definition of religious faith:

The confident belief in the truth of a religious idea that is not based on logical proof or material evidence.

Why is faith considered a virtue? It's not. At least it seems like it's not anymore, outside certain religious communities.

 

[Meow Mix]

But it's never reasonable. And all the answers you get turn out to be invalid because you find ways to *make* them invalid. It's weapons-grade stubborness.

I've changed my position on things because of being exposed to information I didn't have before. There's a difference between being stubborn and refraining from undue credulity.

 

[Meow Mix]

You have all the answers already. So why ask questions?

When have I ever claimed to have "all the answers already?"

Sometimes Pete, what you say about me is really a reflection of yourself. You seem to think to know an awful lot about me and what makes me tick and refuse to believe otherwise no matter what I say or do.

 

[tarasan]

When have I ever claimed to have "all the answers already?"

Sometimes Pete, what you say about me is really a reflection of yourself. You seem to think to know an awful lot about me and what makes me tick and refuse to believe otherwise no matter what I say or do.

thats it i demand you both you both hug

 

[Meow Mix]

If you think it is insane to think the eternity of a soul is a wishy-washy game, you are correct. It is insane. Yet you still have this definition. Why not abandon it? Why do you persistently cling to this insane idea, saying that this is why you don't believe in God (or one of the reasons you don't anyway). Do you not trust yourself enough to form your own perception?

I see this argument a lot from people and I always wonder why they keep such insane ideas. For the church, it's political. It's about obedience. It's about keeping the peons in line. And if you want to be a peon, you keep this idea going. Personally, I don't want to be a peon, so I got rid of the stupid idea. But that's just me...

Then help me understand -- how is it NOT a wishy-washy game for eternity? Unless you're saying God doesn't expect you to magically come to the right conclusion in lieu of evidence in order to get into heaven.

Unversalists are not crazy to me.

But it's not me that's keeping that idea alive per se, yes I get confused by it but some people actually adhere to beliefs that amount to what I described.

 

[Meow Mix]

thats it i demand you both you both hug

Fair enough.

Hug time Pete!

:hug:

 

[Midnight Pete]

I've changed my position on things because of being exposed to information I didn't have before. There's a difference between being stubborn and refraining from undue credulity.

You would have made a great Vulcan.

 

[Storm]

Forgive me for jumping in without reading the whole thread, but it's rather long.

I think blind faith was declared a virtue by the powerful to maintain power.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Fair enough.

Hug time Pete!

:hug:

:hug:

I hate what you do to me.