Why is the argument that there were no Palestinians raised?

[Bunyip]

Let's start again. Here is the text.
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I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
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Now, take a look -- this is a statement of "sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations." The government, it says, favors establishing a national home for the Jewish people. The only place where any statement regarding a "national home" is mentioned is in reference to Jews. With regard to non-Jews, it speaks only of "civil and religious rights" not nationalistic ones. You see the? I didn't create that distinction. The text clearly separates the groups and the rights recognized for each.

No mention of "Palestinians" as a group. No mention of any nationalistic right or guarantee or even awareness for any other group besides Jews. And you can't show otherwise.

So what? It doesn't mention the term. What is your point?

 

[CMike]

I'm starting to get a picture of why so many Palestinians are calling for Israel's destruction, it appears hard to have a rational discussion with many of the Jews with regards peaceful coexistence.

When are you going to start?

 

[Lyndon]

When are you going to stop your Hate????

 

[rosends]

So what? It doesn't mention the term. What is your point?

Seriously? Your claim was that the nationalistic right was guaranteed to Palestinians in the document. Neither the nationalistic right nor the group was mentioned. And you want to know my point? My point is that your claim was and is unfounded.

 

[Bunyip]

Seriously? Your claim was that the nationalistic right was guaranteed to Palestinians in the document. Neither the nationalistic right nor the group was mentioned. And you want to know my point? My point is that your claim was and is unfounded.

No that was not my claim, please re-read my comments.
The point is that Balfour recognises that there was a non-Jewish Palestinian population who are entitled to equal status. The topic here is the myth that there were no Palestinians, which is frankly absurd.

 

[Kirran]

Rosends, I'll reply to your post later.

But first, the Balfour declaration is not explicit in establishing that there should be a separate Palestinian nationality, it only makes clear that there should be a national home for Jews. It acknowledges the existence of non-Jews, but seems geared towards supporting their rights within a Jewish state.

They're widely discriminated against as second-class citizens in Israel mow, but that doesn't change what the agreement said.

 

[Flankerl]

They're widely discriminated against as second-class citizens in Israel mow, but that doesn't change what the agreement said.

And what exactly do you view as widely discrimination? Because I bet that anything you are going to mention happens also to Russian Jews, Beta Israel or Yemeni Jews.

Oh and as far as widely discrimination goes. There were numerous Arab rallies during the summer where they even waved Hamas flags and shouted not so nice things.
Yet if the rallies were otherwise peaceful the Israeli Police did nothing.

 

[rosends]

No that was not my claim, please re-read my comments.
The point is that Balfour recognises that there was a non-Jewish Palestinian population who are entitled to equal status. The topic here is the myth that there were no Palestinians, which is frankly absurd.

I'm sorry, I must have misread post 76:
"My belief is that the Palestinian claim to statehood is exactly as legitimate as that of Israel - the Balfour declaration."
The Balfour Declaration never mentions Palestinians, or any notion of a state for them. So how, exactly do you see that the declaration recognizes either the group Palestinians, or the nationalistic right?

 

[rosends]

And what exactly do you view as widely discrimination? Because I bet that anything you are going to mention happens also to Russian Jews, Beta Israel or Yemeni Jews.

Oh and as far as widely discrimination goes. There were numerous Arab rallies during the summer where they even waved Hamas flags and shouted not so nice things.
Yet if the rallies were otherwise peaceful the Israeli Police did nothing.

The problem here is a bit stickier. Those groups are geographically identified and are citizens. If the earlier statement of "Arab Israelis =/= Palestinians" holds true (somewhere on page 13 I think) then I'm not sure what discrimination is referred to because I don't know what group is being referred to.

 

[Shad]

My standard is supported specifically by the Balfour Declaration which uses the word "Jew." The only category of "other" is "non-Jewish" so a "Palestinian" cannot claim as a Muslim specifically any more than a Bahai can claim because he is Bahai.

The Balfour Declaration was superseded by UN partition plans which was accepted by the UK. You cite a declaration which has no power or authority. By the terms of the 47 partition plan Arabs are recognized in the area as having a right to a state. It also violates the UN Charter Articles 1.2 Charter of the United Nations: Chapter I: Purposes and Principles

Jew is also a religious identification which covers people which converted by never lived in the area. Islam could be used to invoke the same claims and colonization of the area by Muslims as there is centuries of history behind it.

 

[Flankerl]

Actually the Balfour Declaration was brought up by "the other side" of this Forum and not rosends.

"Jew" is an Ethnoreligious identification. How non-Jews interpret the term "Jew" has no importance at all for Jews.

 

[Shad]

Actually the Balfour Declaration was brought up by "the other side" of this Forum and not rosends.

"Jew" is an Ethnoreligious identification. How non-Jews interpret the term "Jew" has no importance at all for Jews.

People are using the term as part of a claim to the area based on history. However merely converting to a religion gives no one a right to land they or their family never inhabited. No more than if I converted to Islam I have a right to carve out my own piece of KSA.

The declaration is useful rhetoric but ultimately meaningless. Hence using it as some sort of authority now is irrelevant

 

[Flankerl]

People are using the term as part of a claim to the area based on history. However merely converting to a religion gives no one a right to land they or their family never inhabited. No more than if I converted to Islam I have a right to carve out my own piece of KSA.

The declaration is useful rhetoric but ultimately meaningless. Hence using it as some sort of authority now is irrelevant

Why would we need to adapt our term of Nationalism which is thousands of years old to the one the western world didn't invent until some 250 years ago?

We are still rather tribal. If you join our tribe you are one of us as if you've been born in our midst. That is it.


The times where non-Jews could dictate how we define ourselves are over and not coming back. Sorry about that.

 

[Shad]

Why would we need to adapt our term of Nationalism which is thousands of years old to the one the western world didn't invent until some 250 years ago?

We are still rather tribal. If you join our tribe you are one of us as if you've been born in our midst. That is it.


The times where non-Jews could dictate how we define ourselves are over and not coming back. Sorry about that.

So one merely adopting an identification this gives them a right to events and a history they were never a part of. Well then I am going to claim to be Roman. Roman claims to Rome supersede those of Italy and the Italians. I eagerly await your support to my Roman claims. I expect your support and those that are like-minded. Otherwise you would be a hypocrite.

 

[Lyndon]

The times when right wing Jews can define who Palestinians are is over and never existed!!

 

[rosends]

The Balfour Declaration was superseded by UN partition plans which was accepted by the UK. You cite a declaration which has no power or authority. By the terms of the 47 partition plan Arabs are recognized in the area as having a right to a state. It also violates the UN Charter Articles 1.2 Charter of the United Nations: Chapter I: Purposes and Principles

Jew is also a religious identification which covers people which converted by never lived in the area. Islam could be used to invoke the same claims and colonization of the area by Muslims as there is centuries of history behind it.

This isn't a question of its political power today. The question was whether it, as a sole document, guaranteed a right to Palestinian nationalism in the same way that it did so for Jewish nationalism.

 

[Lyndon]

So the Jewish charter is essentially racist against Palestinians, not giving them the same rights as Jews, wonderful, how do you get off defending that???

 

[Flankerl]

So one merely adopting an identification this gives them a right to events and a history they were never a part of. Well then I am going to claim to be Roman. Roman claims to Rome supersede those of Italy and the Italians. I eagerly await your support to my Roman claims. I expect your support and those that are like-minded. Otherwise you would be a hypocrite.

Why would I support your claims? I don't expect you to support mine.
It's just that your opinion on who qualifies as a Jew is completely unimportant.

You want to be Roman? Well have fun. Don't expect too much support, as a Roman you are my historical enemy.

 

[rosends]

So the Jewish charter is essentially racist against Palestinians, not giving them the same rights as Jews, wonderful, how do you get off defending that???

Whom are you talking to?
What charter?
What race? What rights?

 

[Lyndon]

You're playing stupid now? There's nothing stupid about your views, evil, maybe, but not stupid, you know full well what I am talking about. Racism has a home in Israel, its part of their Zionist identity.