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Why is the theory of evolution...still considered a theory?

Skwim

Veteran Member
This forum is atheist's forum I suppose
Of course. Science and technology have always been an atheistic endeavors. Ever hear of a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim scientist? Of course not.

In our philosophy there is a rule
It say:
Something/somebody that doesn't have something it/he can't give that to others
Curious. Who is this "our" you mention?

Just Reverse this rule
Kind of an obvious condition to be regarded as a rule, but whatever. In any case, reversing your rule: Something/somebody that has something it/he can give that to others. That about it? If so it's hardly true. Can I give you my intelligence? How about the talent of Van Cliburn. Could he have given it to you?

This rule is meant to be about god's perfect attributes
God can't give what he doesn't have? But being omnipotent couldn't he have anything he wanted?


.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
T

In our philosophy there is a rule
It say:
Something/somebody that doesn't have something it/he can't give that to others

This is trivially easy to disprove.
Take a block of ice and let it melt.
Who gave the newly formed water its liquidity?
Where did the solidity of ice go?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
not wanting to die is the pivot.
we know we must...but do not want to and will go to great effort to continue breathing

but we won't
breathing is a guarantee.....you won't

I believe Man as he walked on Day Six was little more than self centered animal
moving in numbers as other herds do......safety in numbers

but each one passing before the spirit within could gel
dying without intention of continuing in spirit
not having considered
not having determined

The garden event is a manipulation
Adam is a chosen son of God
in body and mind....a long walk with God
and then to keep it going.....
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride.
Sorry I cannot buy that story, if it is literal that is ?.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Sorry I cannot buy that story, if it is literal that is ?.
a lot of people don't....or won't...

but I see the garden event as interesting because....there's science in it

Adam was given a deep sleep....anesthesia
a rib was taken....surgery
the sample was increased to full stature....cloning
the sample was altered to produce a female....genetic manipulation
Eve was not born of woman....no navel
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride.

so the story is beyond belief?
can't be undone by science

and if you think it unbelievable now.....
what would it sound like in the days of Moses....around a campfire?

take a rib from a man and not kill him?.........
and he slept?!!!!!!

transform the rib into a woman?

but modern man has more opportunity to believe
we can see the possiblity
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
a lot of people don't....or won't...

but I see the garden event as interesting because....there's science in it

Adam was given a deep sleep....anesthesia
a rib was taken....surgery
the sample was increased to full stature....cloning
the sample was altered to produce a female....genetic manipulation
Eve was not born of woman....no navel
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride.

so the story is beyond belief?
can't be undone by science

and if you think it unbelievable now.....
what would it sound like in the days of Moses....around a campfire?

take a rib from a man and not kill him?.........
and he slept?!!!!!!

transform the rib into a woman?

but modern man has more opportunity to believe
we can see the possiblity
I think all your doing is applying the story to what is already known from science, Genius is a story, there have been many stories by many religions about creation, there myths, they were never meant to be taken literally.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The thing is, laws have had varying domains of applicability while some having claim to greater domains and some lesser.
What is interesting is that your initial response to me was a criticism of my post, written in response to another that laws are universal and can't be wrong, and stating instead that the laws are not absolute nor universal. However, it is not at all true that scientists or philosophers of science today all agree that the term "law" should be understood in the way you describe. I don't deny that many do, but it is important to realize that there remain those laws which are still held to be universal (e.g., the conservation of information, itself a kind of energy conservation law), there remain those scientists and philosophers who believe that "law" should refer only to such laws, and that in general most of the "laws" of nature/physics known today are products of historical failings in physics:
“Problems with the term ‘law of nature’ arose and still arise from the fact that the physicists of the nineteenth century overloaded this term with attributes that in the aftermath were all found to be correct or misleading…
…the physicists of the nineteenth century assumed that their laws of nature were effective and valid at any time and everywhere in the universe.”

Kricheldorf, H. R. (2016). Getting it Right in Science and Medicine: Can science Progress through Errors? Fallacies and Facts. Springer.

At the end of the day, I think we are mostly in agreement about the nature of laws of physics/nature, but disagree somewhat concerning whether to reinterpret the use of the term "law" in terms not only of domain of applicability but also validity (i.e., Coulomb's law or Boyle's law are expressly limited in terms of domain, while Newton's law of gravitation should describe the attraction that Coulomb's law does but fails to be valid at such small scales), or to retain the at the very least the notion that a law be valid universally in its domain. I don't consider Newton's law of gravitation to be anything other than a useful tool that is an incorrect description of nature.

EDIT: Found the book I mentioned in my original draft of this post:
"The waters of the present discussion are sometimes muddied by the variety of terms used to describe the same thing. We speak, for example, of the gas laws, Planck's quantum hypothesis, the Pauli principle and the postulates of quantum mechanics. Each term highlighted in italics has essentially the same meaning..." (italics in original, emphasis added)
Grinter, R. (2005). The Quantum in Chemistry: An experimentalist's View. Wiley.

I just thought this a good example of how scientists tend to view the plethora of terms that were bequeathed to us by a 19th century worldview and have largely lost any real distinctions or hierarchical structure.
 
Last edited:

interminable

منتظر
Not exactly, but that is not really relevant either. Nor should it be. Science is science, with or without atheism.


I don't really. I do make some educated guesses at times, but it is a risky business.

Even if I did know exactly what you mean, it is not proper for me to put words in your mouth when I disagree with you, don't you think?



Is that supposed to apply to biology?
That rule is one of the effects of believing in causality that u don't

And applies for everything except for one existence that is unlimited

Unfortunately when physics and chemistry are equation of science how can they believe in God??

Some members told me is god shy that doesn't show himself to us???

This question is originated from this view that we have to observe everything to gain certainty that it exists while seeing god with this eye is impossible
 

interminable

منتظر
You failed to reply to my invitation about knowing about the science first before making criticisms . From this I infer that you are here mere to air your views and not to have genuine conversations. Do I infer correctly?
Something that is very important but u easily are skipping is logic and causality

What is science exactly???
Should we wait here for scientists to prove the existence of God or reject???
Should not we exert our wisdom and think????

Do they have something that we don't??

Something that even illiterate people have is logic but these so called scientists believe in logic except for creation of themselves
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That rule is one of the effects of believing in causality that u don't

And applies for everything except for one existence that is unlimited

Unfortunately when physics and chemistry are equation of science how can they believe in God??

I am sure that there is some degree of language trouble at work here, but still, you seem to be asking why people who are aware of the natural sciences should believe in God.

Maybe they should not. But that is not supposed to be important either way.

Not for science, at the very least.

Perhaps for religion it is significant whether one believes in God or not. Perhaps - although personally I don't think belief in God is expected to be important or even desirable in religion either.

Religion is not supposed to be less significant than simple god-belief. Nor is it expected to put itself at odds against scientific knowledge just because or out of vanity.

Some members told me is god shy that doesn't show himself to us???

This question is originated from this view that we have to observe everything to gain certainty that it exists while seeing god with this eye is impossible

I fear there is considerable language challenge here as well.

My best guess is that you mean to say that people can't see physical evidence of "God's existence and that is why it is possible for them not to be believers.

Which is fair enough, but I suspect that you mean to say or imply something else as well.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Something that is very important but u easily are skipping is logic and causality
How so?
What is science exactly???
Mostly, the study of reality in a methodical, analytical way.
Should we wait here for scientists to prove the existence of God or reject???
Probably not. God is not really a subject matter for science to study, when all is said and done. At least until some consensus on what evidence for God would be is reached, I suppose.

But that is probably not going to happen at all, nor significant for either science or religion.

Should not we exert our wisdom and think????
We definitely should.

Do they have something that we don't??
Who are "they" in this sentence?

Something that even illiterate people have is logic but these so called scientists believe in logic except for creation of themselves
Are you saying that it is illogical not to believe in divine creation?

Well, that is just plain wrong.
 

interminable

منتظر
Of course. Science and technology have always been an atheistic endeavors. Ever hear of a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim scientist? Of course not.


Curious. Who is this "our" you mention?

Kind of an obvious condition to be regarded as a rule, but whatever. In any case, reversing your rule: Something/somebody that has something it/he can give that to others. That about it? If so it's hardly true. Can I give you my intelligence? How about the talent of Van Cliburn. Could he have given it to you?


God can't give what he doesn't have? But being omnipotent couldn't he have anything he wanted?


.
Sure u know nothing about history of science just know that al in some words in English originated from Arabic when it was language of science like alcohol

Besides rule says
If someone gives u something it means he had it already to share with you

So everything that is kind of perfect attributes someone should possesses them to give them otherwise he can't give them simply because u can't share something that is non existent to others

And god is existence itself and we are dependent existences

So god has whatever he wants
 

interminable

منتظر
How so?

Mostly, the study of reality in a methodical, analytical way.

Probably not. God is not really a subject matter for science to study, when all is said and done. At least until some consensus on what evidence for God would be is reached, I suppose.

But that is probably not going to happen at all, nor significant for either science or religion.


We definitely should.


Who are "they" in this sentence?


Are you saying that it is illogical not to believe in divine creation?

Well, that is just plain wrong.
This is fundamental question that everybody asks from himself
Why I am here??

Those scientists don't want to answer to this question otherwise it is the most important question that everybody should find an answer for it

What is the purpose of life???

Isn't worthwhile to answer to this question???
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What is interesting is that your initial response to me was a criticism of my post, written in response to another that laws are universal and can't be wrong, and stating instead that the laws are not absolute nor universal. However, it is not at all true that scientists or philosophers of science today all agree that the term "law" should be understood in the way you describe. I don't deny that many do, but it is important to realize that there remain those laws which are still held to be universal (e.g., the conservation of information, itself a kind of energy conservation law), there remain those scientists and philosophers who believe that "law" should refer only to such laws, and that in general most of the "laws" of nature/physics known today are products of historical failings in physics:
“Problems with the term ‘law of nature’ arose and still arise from the fact that the physicists of the nineteenth century overloaded this term with attributes that in the aftermath were all found to be correct or misleading…
…the physicists of the nineteenth century assumed that their laws of nature were effective and valid at any time and everywhere in the universe.”

Kricheldorf, H. R. (2016). Getting it Right in Science and Medicine: Can science Progress through Errors? Fallacies and Facts. Springer.

At the end of the day, I think we are mostly in agreement about the nature of laws of physics/nature, but disagree somewhat concerning whether to reinterpret the use of the term "law" in terms not only of domain of applicability but also validity (i.e., Coulomb's law or Boyle's law are expressly limited in terms of domain, while Newton's law of gravitation should describe the attraction that Coulomb's law does but fails to be valid at such small scales), or to retain the at the very least the notion that a law be valid universally in its domain. I don't consider Newton's law of gravitation to be anything other than a useful tool that is an incorrect description of nature.

EDIT: Found the book I mentioned in my original draft of this post:
"The waters of the present discussion are sometimes muddied by the variety of terms used to describe the same thing. We speak, for example, of the gas laws, Planck's quantum hypothesis, the Pauli principle and the postulates of quantum mechanics. Each term highlighted in italics has essentially the same meaning..." (italics in original, emphasis added)
Grinter, R. (2005). The Quantum in Chemistry: An experimentalist's View. Wiley.

I just thought this a good example of how scientists tend to view the plethora of terms that were bequeathed to us by a 19th century worldview and have largely lost any real distinctions or hierarchical structure.

I know we agree on this. This was my first post in this thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...till-considered-a-theory.190821/#post-4890272

What I took exception to was when you said "most laws of physics and chemistry have been found to be false." This is just to black-white for me. For me, the laws of horoscopes are false or the laws of palmistry/alchemy/Feng-shui are false while the laws (principles, whatever) of classical mechanics are not. As I see it, all models of physics have a domain of applicability and the domain of exactitude within that domain. Today it should be viewed as a constrained simplification of a more general theory , but its too much to call it false.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Something that is very important but u easily are skipping is logic and causality

What is science exactly???
Should we wait here for scientists to prove the existence of God or reject???
Should not we exert our wisdom and think????

Do they have something that we don't??

Something that even illiterate people have is logic but these so called scientists believe in logic except for creation of themselves
Usually, without careful training in science, maths or philosophy...people are incapable of applying the principles of logic and causality correctly. This is quite well established. The theories of science are rigorous applications of logic and reason to the observations of the world.

Science is the best and most accurate understanding of the world as is possible given the current observations of the workings of the world, done with extreme and rigorous use of evidence, logic and reason.
Science has so far not found it necessary to invoke God in its understanding of the world. This despite the fact that its understanding far outstrips in breadth and predictive power than any other way of understanding the workings of the world. Make what you want of this fact.
You should learn how to think correctly. No human is capable of doing this without careful training. Without it, what appears wisdom to you is only foolishness.

I don't know what you have. I am fairly confident that as a scientist, my understanding of the natural world far outstrips yours. That is what I have.

You believe wrong things about science. This is because you don't know what it is and how it is done.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Sure u know nothing about history of science
Try me. :)

just know that al in some words in English originated from Arabic when it was language of science like alcohol
That is true for Brazilian Portuguese as well.

Such vocabulary is not particularly tied to science, though. Maybe it was once.

Come to think of it, there isn't much scientific research coming from the Arabic world these days, sadly.
Besides rule says
If someone gives u something it means he had it already to share with you
A poetic enough statement, but not of much use for science, as @sayak83 demonstrated already.

One has to be far more rigorous than that when attempting to make claims about reality as a whole.
So everything that is kind of perfect attributes someone should possesses them to give them otherwise he can't give them simply because u can't share something that is non existent to others

And god is existence itself and we are dependent existences
I understand that such is your belief. I hope you understand that there is no good reason why anyone should feel bound to agree with it.
So god has whatever he wants
Apparently God sees fit not to have everyone believing in His existence just because.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
This is fundamental question that everybody asks from himself
Why I am here??
That is certainly a popular question, but it is very much an exageration to call it a fundamental question. It is not even all that clear that it is a significant or important question.

Those scientists don't want to answer to this question otherwise it is the most important question that everybody should find an answer for it
Sorry, but you are quite wrong there.

What is the purpose of life???
If there is such a purpose, it is not at all self-evident.

It should also be considered that even if there is such a purpose, it may easily be different between sentient and non-sentient life.

Isn't worthwhile to answer to this question???
That is a personal call. Many people find it worthwhile to answer, reaching various conclusions.

But aren't we going off-topic? This is a thread about evolution, after all. And evolution (the biological finding) in no way connects to such metaphysical questions.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I think all your doing is applying the story to what is already known from science, Genius is a story, there have been many stories by many religions about creation, there myths, they were never meant to be taken literally.
the story came first...a long time ago
science came much later

I find the story remarkable because it has science in it
long before anyone could understand it

so maybe the story is factual
and the event really happened
and now we have the science that allows the belief to take hold

no more excuses
 

McBell

Unbound
the story came first...a long time ago
science came much later

I find the story remarkable because it has science in it
long before anyone could understand it

so maybe the story is factual
and the event really happened
and now we have the science that allows the belief to take hold

no more excuses
Isn't the Forer Effect fun?
 
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