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Why Islam, Christianity and modern Judaism are all apostate religious institutions.

catch22

Active Member
Comprehensive list of Paul's contradictions of Jesus:

Paul's Contradictions of Jesus

I posted a comprehensive list of Jesus and Paul's teaching aligning, on CARM. Remember?

How long do we go round and round posting random links that support each's position? The fact is you're position is so outside the norm, you have nothing but conspiracy theory websites to make a case for you. Sorry... unconvincing :(
 

catch22

Active Member
His apostleship was unrecognized by others.

"Of the 22 times in the Bible where Paul is referred to as an "apostle", only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself! These two instances came from the same person. Not from Yeshua, or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14). Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas. By this time in the story, Luke would have been very accustomed to Paul calling himself an apostle, and he would no doubt have been in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record recognizing his apostleship!"

His claim of apostleship stands alone.

Other than the twelve apostles who spent three and a half years with Yeshua, no one other than Paul can be identified as having claimed for themselves the title of "apostle". Barnabas was referred to as an apostle along with Paul by Luke in Acts 14:14, but there is no record of Barnabas claiming the title for himself."
Paul the false apostle

Good Lord. If you're going to pretend to read the book, at least read it in depth rather than relying on websites to break it up and chew it up for you.

Acts 22

12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

And the last point about Barnabas: Why WOULD Barnabas "claim" to be an apostle if he's silent in scripture? Lots of apostles didn't claim to be apostles because they didn't write about themselves or write at all... That said, Acts 14:14 identifies him as an apostle.... ALONG WITH PAUL.

Jeez. You really don't get what an apostle is, do you?
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Inconclusive. But the fact it's canonized as Peter is evidence enough for most.
Peter was written too late for the author to have been Peter. Peter was likely illiterate. The fact that it's canonized as Peter is hardly compelling.
The truth is, like your anti-Paul stance, you follow conjecture as a means of validation,
The truth is, accepting some appellation, simply because "that's what it says" is conjecture-as-a-means-of-validation.
The kicker is this: it's canonized as Peter, there's no conclusive evidence to say it isn't, and so it becomes an issue of faith.
No it doesn't. It becomes a matter of drawing conclusions from speculation.
 

catch22

Active Member
Peter was written too late for the author to have been Peter. Peter was likely illiterate. The fact that it's canonized as Peter is hardly compelling.

The truth is, accepting some appellation, simply because "that's what it says" is conjecture-as-a-means-of-validation.

No it doesn't. It becomes a matter of drawing conclusions from speculation.

Prove it. "Likely illiterate"? Really? Drawing conclusions from speculation, isn't that what you just said to me, eh?

It is compelling it was canonized, it had to pass the scrutiny of people much closer to it than we are now.

I mean, the best evidence is the similarity to Jude, but 2 Peter predates Jude. Jude quotes 2 Peter in verses 17 and 18.

So then you're left with textual differences. Yet, what argument have you other than scribal differences? Not to mention when we know 1 Timothy and Titus are the same author, the word variation between those texts and 1 and 2 Peter's authors are virtually the same, giving the theory little credit.

So, please, by all means. Prove it!
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Prove it. "Likely illiterate"? Really? Drawing conclusions from speculation, isn't that what you just said to me, eh?
Peter (if he existed at all) was (by all accounts) a fisherman. In that era and place, such workers were illiterate, because the culture was largely oral.
It is compelling it was canonized, it had to pass the scrutiny of people much closer to it than we are now.
It was canonized -- just like all other biblical texts. John of Patmos and Paul are the only known authors -- and even Paul didn't write everything that's attributed to him.
So, please, by all means. Prove it!
You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. There is no proof.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Good Lord. If you're going to pretend to read the book, at least read it in depth rather than relying on websites to break it up and chew it up for you.

Acts 22

12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

And the last point about Barnabas: Why WOULD Barnabas "claim" to be an apostle if he's silent in scripture? Lots of apostles didn't claim to be apostles because they didn't write about themselves or write at all... That said, Acts 14:14 identifies him as an apostle.... ALONG WITH PAUL.

Jeez. You really don't get what an apostle is, do you?
There were only twelve apostles. The only reason why people think there was more than twelve is because of Paul.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Prove it. "Likely illiterate"? Really? Drawing conclusions from speculation, isn't that what you just said to me, eh?

It is compelling it was canonized, it had to pass the scrutiny of people much closer to it than we are now.

I mean, the best evidence is the similarity to Jude, but 2 Peter predates Jude. Jude quotes 2 Peter in verses 17 and 18.

So then you're left with textual differences. Yet, what argument have you other than scribal differences? Not to mention when we know 1 Timothy and Titus are the same author, the word variation between those texts and 1 and 2 Peter's authors are virtually the same, giving the theory little credit.

So, please, by all means. Prove it!

Texts are not the same at all. Peter doesn't even spell his name right in 2 Peter!! This is why Martin Luther considered 2 Peter to be fraudulent.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I posted a comprehensive list of Jesus and Paul's teaching aligning, on CARM. Remember?

How long do we go round and round posting random links that support each's position? The fact is you're position is so outside the norm, you have nothing but conspiracy theory websites to make a case for you. Sorry... unconvincing :(
Think about it logically. There is only one person in the Bible who's theology differs drastically from EVERY OTHER PERSON IN THE BIBLE. This same person was not one of the twelve chosen apostles which Jesus says will be the authorities of New Jerusalem. Paul taught that the law of Moses was abrogated because of Jesus' death, a concept that Jesus NEVER taught. The list of differences I sent you was comprehensive and backed up by numerous mainstream Christian scholars. If you took the time to read it you would know that.

The reality is you are unable to see this as even being a possibility because you have bought into Paul's logic of predestination. This means that the Bible was divinely collected and can't be wrong. Yet the Biblical method of approving scripture is whether it agrees or not with the original texts. The circular logic goes like this:

"how do we know Paul is inspired?….because he is in the bible!!…..how do we know the whole bible is inspired?……because Paul teaches us that God preordains every event in detail!! And round and round we go!

God told Israel to guard His commandments and warned us not to follow "false prophets" who do miracles but teach us NOT to keep the commandments. Jesus picked up on this concept and paraphrased it here:

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS (anomia = law negator).’ Matt 7: 21-23

Jesus is stating the following:

-Believing Jesus is Lord does NOT give someone salvation (hmmm. who taught that?)
-Instead, those who "do the will of the Father" (Torah) will be redeemed.
-Says many who "believe in Jesus" will perform miracles, healings and exorcisms but still be false
-These miracle workers will negate the law of Moses (or teach against the practice of these laws)

Yet notice how Paul "proves" his validity as a "chosen apostle":

11You have made me act like a fool—boasting like this.c You ought to be writing commendations for me, for I am not at all inferior to these “super apostles,” even though I am nothing at all. 12When I was with you, I certainly gave you proof that I am an apostle. For I patiently did many signs and wonders and miracles among you. 2 Cor 12: 11-12

Jesus tells us that signs and wonders are not proof at all. He actually says that miracle working "law negators" will deceive many! Also, Paul is clearly claiming to have equal authority as the twelve themselves!! Yet if this is true, why is Paul left out of ALL of Jesus' apostolic lists??

Notice how Paul confirms Jesus' words about his "miracle working" and how it has nothing to do with the law of Moses:

I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ. Gal 3: 5

Notice how Jesus' words and Paul's words are completely contrary on this issue.
 
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catch22

Active Member
Think about it logically. There is only one person in the Bible who's theology differs drastically from EVERY OTHER PERSON IN THE BIBLE. This same person was not one of the twelve chosen apostles which Jesus says will be the authorities of New Jerusalem. Paul taught that the law of Moses was abrogated because of Jesus' death, a concept that Jesus NEVER taught. The list of differences I sent you was comprehensive and backed up by numerous mainstream Christian scholars. If you took the time to read it you would know that.

The reality is you are unable to see this as even being a possibility because you have bought into Paul's logic of predestination. This means that the Bible was divinely collected and can't be wrong. Yet the Biblical method of approving scripture is whether it agrees or not with the original texts. The circular logic goes like this:

"how do we know Paul is inspired?….because he is in the bible!!…..how do we know the whole bible is inspired?……because Paul teaches us that God preordains every event in detail!! And round and round we go!

God told Israel to guard His commandments and warned us not to follow "false prophets" who do miracles but teach us NOT to keep the commandments. Jesus picked up on this concept and paraphrased it here:

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS (anomia = law negator).’ Matt 7: 21-23

Jesus is stating the following:

-Believing Jesus is Lord does NOT give someone salvation (hmmm. who taught that?)
-Instead, those who "do the will of the Father" (Torah) will be redeemed.
-Says many who "believe in Jesus" will perform miracles, healings and exorcisms but still be false
-These miracle workers will negate the law of Moses (or teach against the practice of these laws)

Yet notice how Paul "proves" his validity as a "chosen apostle":

11You have made me act like a fool—boasting like this.c You ought to be writing commendations for me, for I am not at all inferior to these “super apostles,” even though I am nothing at all. 12When I was with you, I certainly gave you proof that I am an apostle. For I patiently did many signs and wonders and miracles among you. 2 Cor 12: 11-12

Jesus tells us that signs and wonders are not proof at all. He actually says that miracle working "law negators" will deceive many! Also, Paul is clearly claiming to have equal authority as the twelve themselves!! Yet if this is true, why is Paul left out of ALL of Jesus' apostolic lists??

Notice how Paul confirms Jesus' words about his "miracle working" and how it has nothing to do with the law of Moses:

I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ. Gal 3: 5

Notice how Jesus' words and Paul's words are completely contrary on this issue.

Your whole premise with Paul isn't a valid one. Try to listen carefully: Barnabas was an apostle. I'm an apostle. There's a lot more than 12 apostles. I've tried to make this as simple as possible.

You need to stop, you're not even arguing a point worth arguing. You just sound silly. There's a fundamental difference between the original 12 and everyone post-Christ.
 

catch22

Active Member
Peter (if he existed at all) was (by all accounts) a fisherman. In that era and place, such workers were illiterate, because the culture was largely oral.

It was canonized -- just like all other biblical texts. John of Patmos and Paul are the only known authors -- and even Paul didn't write everything that's attributed to him.

You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. There is no proof.

I didn't make the claim. Simplelogic claimed Peter didn't write it. You affirmed his position. The book of 2 Peter says Peter himself wrote it. If he didn't, you're calling the author a liar.

Prove it.

Neither of you have evidence to say otherwise, so what's the problem here?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I posted a comprehensive list of Jesus and Paul's teaching aligning, on CARM. Remember?

How long do we go round and round posting random links that support each's position? The fact is you're position is so outside the norm, you have nothing but conspiracy theory websites to make a case for you. Sorry... unconvincing :(
And remember. I responded to it.
Your whole premise with Paul isn't a valid one. Try to listen carefully: Barnabas was an apostle. I'm an apostle. There's a lot more than 12 apostles. I've tried to make this as simple as possible.

You need to stop, you're not even arguing a point worth arguing. You just sound silly. There's a fundamental difference between the original 12 and everyone post-Christ.
The term apostle in the first century was an exclusive title which referred to the 12 "sent ones" of Jesus. Almost every church father affirms that this title was exclusive to the twelve. Jesus never uses the term apostle outside of his chosen twelve. The ONLY reason you think people like yourself can claim this title is because of Paul! Once again, circular logic.
 

catch22

Active Member
And remember. I responded to it.

The term apostle in the first century was an exclusive title which referred to the 12 "sent ones" of Jesus. Almost every church father affirms that this title was exclusive to the twelve. Jesus never uses the term apostle outside of his chosen twelve. The ONLY reason you think people like yourself can claim this title is because of Paul! Once again, circular logic.

Oh it's circular, alright. Mainly because you can't read for yourself, you've set out with confirmation bias to cling to your black helicopter theories from various apostate websites, rather than just reading for yourself.

That said, I've never seen anyone cling so tightly to an otherwise loosely used term.

Mark 3 is a good place to start:

13 And he went up on the mountain and called to him those whom he desired, and they came to him. 14 And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach 15 and have authority to cast out demons.

Timothy, Apollos, and Silas are named as apostles (1 Thes, 1 Cor). Acts 14:14, we've already cited for Barnabas.

Luke 9:

9 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.

Also seen in Mark 6:

7 And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. 8 He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts— 9 but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics.

Luke 10:

1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. 2 Then He said to them, “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road.

Looky there, the Lord appointing people to be "sent out," and it's not just the 12. Craziness.

Mark 16:

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Amazing, the same things He told the 12 back before His death, and the 70 others He sent out after.

Shall I continue? Okay.

Matthew 28:

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

This is also seen in Mark 16.

John 17:

18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.


It's usually considered an interchangeable word, disciple/apostle (mainly because "apostle" is sparsely used in Matthew (once maybe?) but almost always said as disciple, and I don't think "apostle" even appears in John). Jesus may have started with 12, but it was never limited to 12. Throughout his ministry He calls people to follow, and many do, though none hold the honorary "twelve" title. Yet, He sends more than just the 12 out, and specifically leaves the remaining 11 with the command to go and make disciples of all nations, and that all who believe will have power and authority in His name. The twelve are church leadership, founders maybe you'd say, because they were the ones Christ selected to take this charge personally after prayer: but He prays for all who hear THEM and continue the church. He had to start somewhere, and these were His most loyal, hence the rewards for them seen in Revelation, perhaps.

But His parting words are for them to do, essentially, what He did with them. Elect and send out. And Peter does this in Acts. Paul does this throughout his letters (most of which pre-date the gospels, in fact, Paul is the first historical reference to the twelve apostles at all, in 1 Corinthians 15. Ironic you accuse him of subverting them). The twelve were a distinct group, for sure, and they are often called "the twelve" in honorary fashion. But the movement was by no means limited to 12 apostles only, otherwise, we would never have heard the gospel. The very nature of what Christ did was to continue naming apostles and sending them out.

Thus, your argument that the term "apostles" or "disciples" in the first century is only meant for the twelve is mostly baseless, the texts themselves use it for others. Christ Himself says it in Matthew 28. Immediately after His death, apostleship begins to increase (arguably before, as I've demonstrated, but the best argument you can really make is during His life and post-resurrection, but immediately after, apostles are named and sent out).

If you'd read to learn, you'd know. But you read to subvert, and so the texts will always elude you. You show so much legalism in this, to which I suppose I'll say, following the Torah and only the Torah, suits you well. And that's rather tragic.

Blessings.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Thus, your argument that the term "apostles" or "disciples" in the first century is only meant for the twelve is mostly baseless, the texts themselves use it for others. Christ Himself says it in Matthew 28. Immediately after His death, apostleship begins to increase (arguably before, as I've demonstrated, but the best argument you can really make is during His life and post-resurrection, but immediately after, apostles are named and sent out).

If you'd read to learn, you'd know. But you read to subvert, and so the texts will always elude you. You show so much legalism in this, to which I suppose I'll say, following the Torah and only the Torah, suits you well. And that's rather tragic.

Blessings.

Oh boy. I never made the case that Jesus didn't have other "disciples" my friend. This actually destroys your case. The twelve apostles were always distinguished as the only twelve apostles, even though there were many disciples!! We have no record of any of the 70 disciples EVER claiming to be an apostle (which inferred the 12). There were a very clear distinction between these two groups. So much so that when Judas died there was a clear dilemma because the apostles knew there had to be twelve apostles!! This is why they chose Matthias!

Now if all the 70 disciples were also considered apostles then why would the 11 disciples feel the need to add another twelfth???

Regarding your comments on the Torah:

I am fine with following the same commands that Jesus did.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The terms are somewhat vague in terms of how they're used:

The word "disciple" is sometimes used interchangeably with "apostle" – for instance the Gospel of John makes no distinction between the two terms...

In his writings, Paul, originally named Saul, though not one of the original twelve, described himself as an apostle, one "born out of due time" (e.g.,Romans 1:1, 1 Corinthians 15:8 and other letters)...

As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "It is at once evident that in a Christian sense, everyone who had received a mission from God, or Christ, to man could be called 'Apostle'"; thus extending the original sense beyond the twelve...

Paul states that Andronicus and Junia were "of note among the apostles."... --
Apostle (Christian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
:
 

catch22

Active Member
He can't read... Matthew says disciples virtually exclusively, and never "apostle" and John doesn't even talk about either term, often saying just "twelve."

I even bolded and underlined it for him.

Shame.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Does not seem a little strange to anyone how Jesus chose twelve to be his exclusive apostles?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Also…notice WHY Matthias was selected to be the twelfth:

Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. In Acts 1:25-26 we read:

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias;and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Then supposedly Paul comes along and privately meets Jesus and has the biggest evangelistic campaign in history. Yet after Paul's ministry we have Jesus saying this:

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So we have a clear cut case that there are 12 Apostles of the lamb, or of
Jesus Christ.

The book of Revelation does not just confirm the authority of the twelve. It also tells us that there are "false apostles" going around Ephesus!

Rev 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:


Do we have proof of Paul claiming to be an apostle in Ephesus?

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Is Paul's name on any of Jesus' list of apostles? Of course not!

It is not on the Mathew 10:2-4 list, nor did Luke in Acts 1 list Paul as on the list of the remaining 11 Apostles, nor did Luke list Paul as the 12th Apostle picked to replace Judas as the 12th Apostle.

The twelve apostles were EYE WITNESSES of Jesus' ministry and death. This is why Matthias was chosen.

Was Paul companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us Acts 1:21?

No, there is no evidence of Paul being present at that time, period.

Was Paul there Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that
he was taken up, as required inActs 1:22a?

No, again no evidence from Paul or any one else as to him being there at
that time.

 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
You also have another problem. The Torah tells us that any prophet or miracle worker who teaches against the commandments of God is FALSE:

1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. Deut 13: 1-4


Jesus's View on the Law. Jesus emphasized the validity of the Law up through the passing away of Heaven and Earth, thus confirming its inspiration and ongoing validity. In Matthew 5:17-19 we read:

(17) Think not that I came to destroy the Law [of Moses] or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the Law, till all things be accomplished [i.e., all things predicted appear on the stage of history]. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so,shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (ASV)

Compare Luke 16:17 similarly says at a different time than the Sermon on the Mount -- meaning Jesus repeated the same point twice:

"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:16-17 NIV.)

Now lets see what good old Paul had to say about the law:

Paul is blunt in Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, 2 Cor. 3:11-17, Romans 7:1-3 et seq, and Galatians 3:19 et seq. The Law is "abolished," "done away with," "nailed to a tree," "has faded away,' and was "only ordained by angels...who are no gods." If we were to cite Paul's condemnations of the Law in one string, the point is self-evident that Paul abrogated the Law for everyone. See Eph. 2:15 ("setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations"); Col. 2:14 ("having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;") 2 Cor. 3:14 ("old covenant"); Gal. 5:1 ("yoke of bondage"); Rom. 10:4 ("Christ is the end of the law"); 2 Cor. 3:7 ("law of death"); Gal. 5:1 ("entangles"); Col. 2:14-17 ("a shadow"); Rom. 3:27 ("law of works"); Rom. 4:15 ("works wrath"); 2 Cor. 3:9(ministration of condemnation); Gal. 2:16 ("cannot justify"); Gal. 3:21 (cannot give life); Col. 2:14 ("wiped out" exaleipsas); Gal. 3:19, 4:8-9 ("given by angels...who are no gods [and are] weak and beggarly celestial beings/elements").

Paul fails the Deut 13 test. He also fails Jesus' declaration that even the "smallest commands" will be relevant until "heaven and earth pass away".
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
On what basis. If I know my daughter will chose to go to the store, how can my knowledge affect her decision. I believe she will still freely choose to go to the store whether I know it or not.
You can't know that about your daughter. You can predict what you "think" she will do but you can't know. Bad analogy.
 
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