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Why Isn't the Sabbath Saturday?

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Hey now, none of that! This is RF we came to argue and tear each other part in our celebration of our meanings of life dialog.





I keed... thanks... it gets too serious up in here for me some days.

I think we need to inject a note of seriousness into this heated debate.

Oh yes, it's ladies night
And the feeling's right
Oh yes, it's ladies night
Oh what a night (oh what a night)

We need to get ready first

:laundry: followed by :bath:

Then a bit of this

:disco::clap2::dan:


and a whole lot of

:cheese:

In the hope we get this

:hugkiss::danana:

How you doin ?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Does the Bible state when the sabbath is? No it does not.

I'm not an evangelical, so your blatant attack means nothing here. Especially when more than just evangelicals accept that their sabbath is on Sunday. The day of the Lord has also often been associated with he sabbath anyway.

As for your last statement. The Bible does not state when the sabbath is. Your point fails. The church fathers made and disagreed on many issues. More so, they acknowledged change. Your point fails again. And Ben your blatant attack shows that you really have no argument but instead a massive prejudice.

It is established and ordained by God Herself that the Sabbath is on the 7th day. That is established within the Creation account itself. Because God ordained the Sabbath on the 7th day, it is immutable.

You just don't get to change the Sabbath day because you feel like it.

It is established by the Apostolic Church under the authority of Jesus Christ himself that the Lord's day is distinct from Sabbath and is celebrated on Sunday in remembrance of Christ's resurrection from the dead.

You don't get to change the rules because you are confused about which day is which.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
It is established and ordained by God Herself that the Sabbath is on the 7th day. That is established within the Creation account itself. Because God ordained the Sabbath on the 7th day, it is immutable.

You just don't get to change the Sabbath day because you feel like it.

It is established by the Apostolic Church under the authority of Jesus Christ himself that the Lord's day is distinct from Sabbath and is celebrated on Sunday in remembrance of Christ's resurrection from the dead.

You don't get to change the rules because you are confused about which day is which.
Does the Bible say when the seventh day was or did people make it up? Let me answer, they made it up. As in, the Bible doesn't state when it was. So no, it isn't immutable. As in, people felt like putting it on the day they did.

Also, Jesus never stated the sabbath had to be on Saturday nor did he make a distinction between the day of he Lord and the sabbath.

Also, Jesus, as well as others (such as the early church fathers) changed many things that Jewish tradition once held. So why can they do that, and it is fine in those cases, but others can't? That's hypocritical.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
This is also addressed to Cynthia

According to Jews and Jewish tradition, yes. However, Christianity has changed their sabbath to Sunday.
As long as they, like Humpty-Dumpty, pay the word extra to mean what they want it to mean, and as long as they're the majority, I guess they can twist the term however they wish, so long as they don't do so while posturing 'respectfully': I really do despise hypocrits.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
As long as they, like Humpty-Dumpty, pay the word extra to mean what they want it to mean, and as long as they're the majority, I guess they can twist the term however they wish, so long as they don't do so while posturing 'respectfully': I really do despise hypocrits.

Actually the major Christian churches like the RCC and EOC all teach that the Sabbath is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset on the 7th day and that it was establish by God which makes it immutable and is distinct from the Lord's day which is on Sunday.

So these Sabbath stealing Christian are not in the majority, they are just confused.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Actually the major Christian churches like the RCC and EOC all teach that the Sabbath is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset on the 7th day and that it was establish by God which makes it immutable and is distinct from the Lord's day which is on Sunday.

So these Sabbath stealing Christian are not in the majority, they are just confused.

Do you have a source? Because having gone to a Catholic church many Sundays with my Grandparents, I was taught that Sunday was the Sabbath. Maybe it is just an American thing then.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
As long as they, like Humpty-Dumpty, pay the word extra to mean what they want it to mean, and as long as they're the majority, I guess they can twist the term however they wish, so long as they don't do so while posturing 'respectfully': I really do despise hypocrits.

I personally think it is a good things Christians don't keep the Jewish sabbath. I'm sure you have seen how twisted some of the Jewish ideas become in the hands of some Christians. I think this distinction then works.

On a side note, many Christians will accept that there Sabbath is different then the Jewish sabbath. Much of the reason for this change, at least in the churches I have went to, is to give extra attention to the resurrection and Jesus.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I've have always been under the impression that The Lord's Day and the Sabbath were two separate things. Traditionally, on Saturday, it is a day of play- to go to the park or whatever and Sunday was for Church services and Sunday school. I've heard some people call the Lord's Day the Sabbath, but I wondered about that- as Saturday is usually the day of the Sabbath. Have I missed something?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Do you have a source? Because having gone to a Catholic church many Sundays with my Grandparents, I was taught that Sunday was the Sabbath. Maybe it is just an American thing then.

I already quoted both the Didache from the Apostolic Age and Ignatius of Antioch, one of the Church Fathers, the Catholic and Orthodox church has always taught that the Sabbath was distinct from the Lord's day right from the Apostolic age.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I've have always been under the impression that The Lord's Day and the Sabbath were two separate things. Traditionally, on Saturday, it is a day of play- to go to the park or whatever and Sunday was for Church services and Sunday school. I've heard some people call the Lord's Day the Sabbath, but I wondered about that- as Saturday is usually the day of the Sabbath. Have I missed something?

No, you are right. Saturday is to rest and relax and Sunday we go do the Mass thing.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Do you have a source? Because having gone to a Catholic church many Sundays with my Grandparents, I was taught that Sunday was the Sabbath. Maybe it is just an American thing then.
Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against this absurd rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matthew 23:4), and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day. (See SUNDAY.) [Sabbath]
Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2; in Apocalypse 1:10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i.e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead". [Sunday]
Shabbat ::= Saturday
Lord's Day ::= Sunday
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
That makes more sense, I haven't heard of Lord's Day til now, thanks all.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Does the Bible state when the sabbath is? No it does not.

I'm not an evangelical, so your blatant attack means nothing here. Especially when more than just evangelicals accept that their sabbath is on Sunday. The day of the Lord has also often been associated with he sabbath anyway.

As for your last statement. The Bible does not state when the sabbath is. Your point fails. The church fathers made and disagreed on many issues. More so, they acknowledged change. Your point fails again. And Ben your blatant attack shows that you really have no argument but instead a massive prejudice.

Fallingblood, with all due respect, I think an argument can be made that the Bible does say when the sabbath is. The argument is passive and implicit rather than active and explicit, that is certain. But the days of the week seem to have always been named the same in Hebrew (as opposed, say, to the months, which have changed names at least once or twice). The days of the week have always been numbered and not named: so whether in Biblical Hebrew of the earliest strata, or later Tanakh texts (to say nothing of Rabbinic Hebrew through to modern Hebrew), Sunday is always yom rishon ("First Day"), Monday always yom sheni ("Second Day") and so on through to Friday, which is yom shishi ("Sixth Day"); but Saturday is consistently Shabbat (the sabbath day). This is absolutely consistent, without variation, regardless of source authorship or presumed dates of origin.

Which also makes sense, if you think about it, in terms of narrative instructions, also. The Fourth Commandment, for example, as it is laid out in Exodus, begins zachor et yom hashabbat lekodsho; sheshet yamim ta'avod v'asita kol melachtechah, v'yom hash'vi'i shabbat l'YHVH elohechah.... "Remember the day of Shabbat, so that you may sanctify it: you shall work for the six days [of the week], doing all your labors, but the seventh day is Shabbat, for YHVH your God...." The phrasing makes it clear that the days numbered one through six are the work week, and the seventh day is Shabbat. The version of the commandment in Deuteronomy uses essentially the same construction, with slightly different phrasing, but the same presumption seems clear. If it were not so, why would there never be a commandment or other laws given specifying which of the seven days is Shabbat? After all, observance of Shabbat was a matter involving considerable obligations, the abrogation of which could (in theory) result in the death penalty. Why would they be vague about this unless it was absolutely manifest and irrefutable-- as in, for example, the days of the week all being sequentially numbered and not named, save only for the day called Shabbat-- which day they considered the seventh day, the day of Shabbat?

I'm not trying to be insulting or quarrelsome-- you know that. But I also do think it's fairly difficult to support the argument that the day of Shabbat meant anything but the day called Shabbat-- the seventh day, which is Saturday on the Roman calendar (there is absolute and unquestioned clarity on this equivalence in the Talmud, also). I'm certainly not saying that Christians or anyone else shouldn't celebrate their sabbaths whenever they like, on whatever day they please. After all, they are not commanded: Torah was never meant for non-Jews. So it matters not a whit what they do. But it seems awfully clear to me that the original sabbath as it was meant and intended in the Tanakh was on the day we call Saturday.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I already quoted both the Didache from the Apostolic Age and Ignatius of Antioch, one of the Church Fathers, the Catholic and Orthodox church has always taught that the Sabbath was distinct from the Lord's day right from the Apostolic age.

I asked in regards to the Catholic church and Easter Orthodox.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist

Shabbat ::= Saturday
Lord's Day ::= Sunday
So basically, the Lord's Day, for Christians, replaces the idea of the Sabbath. So, it is almost as if the Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath. A difference, but I find it menial. But nonetheless, I was wrong, at least in part.

I can tell you that many churches in my area still refer to Sunday as the Christian sabbath, or interchangeably with the Lord's Day. So it seems that at least to the lay audience, it is murky water.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Fallingblood, with all due respect, I think an argument can be made that the Bible does say when the sabbath is. The argument is passive and implicit rather than active and explicit, that is certain. But the days of the week seem to have always been named the same in Hebrew (as opposed, say, to the months, which have changed names at least once or twice). The days of the week have always been numbered and not named: so whether in Biblical Hebrew of the earliest strata, or later Tanakh texts (to say nothing of Rabbinic Hebrew through to modern Hebrew), Sunday is always yom rishon ("First Day"), Monday always yom sheni ("Second Day") and so on through to Friday, which is yom shishi ("Sixth Day"); but Saturday is consistently Shabbat (the sabbath day). This is absolutely consistent, without variation, regardless of source authorship or presumed dates of origin.

Which also makes sense, if you think about it, in terms of narrative instructions, also. The Fourth Commandment, for example, as it is laid out in Exodus, begins zachor et yom hashabbat lekodsho; sheshet yamim ta'avod v'asita kol melachtechah, v'yom hash'vi'i shabbat l'YHVH elohechah.... "Remember the day of Shabbat, so that you may sanctify it: you shall work for the six days [of the week], doing all your labors, but the seventh day is Shabbat, for YHVH your God...." The phrasing makes it clear that the days numbered one through six are the work week, and the seventh day is Shabbat. The version of the commandment in Deuteronomy uses essentially the same construction, with slightly different phrasing, but the same presumption seems clear. If it were not so, why would there never be a commandment or other laws given specifying which of the seven days is Shabbat? After all, observance of Shabbat was a matter involving considerable obligations, the abrogation of which could (in theory) result in the death penalty. Why would they be vague about this unless it was absolutely manifest and irrefutable-- as in, for example, the days of the week all being sequentially numbered and not named, save only for the day called Shabbat-- which day they considered the seventh day, the day of Shabbat?

I'm not trying to be insulting or quarrelsome-- you know that. But I also do think it's fairly difficult to support the argument that the day of Shabbat meant anything but the day called Shabbat-- the seventh day, which is Saturday on the Roman calendar (there is absolute and unquestioned clarity on this equivalence in the Talmud, also). I'm certainly not saying that Christians or anyone else shouldn't celebrate their sabbaths whenever they like, on whatever day they please. After all, they are not commanded: Torah was never meant for non-Jews. So it matters not a whit what they do. But it seems awfully clear to me that the original sabbath as it was meant and intended in the Tanakh was on the day we call Saturday.
Thank you for posting that. I will cede my argument, as you make a great case.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I asked in regards to the Catholic church and Easter Orthodox.

Jay and I answered. Ignatius of Antioch is a sufficient source, he was a Church Father.

The Jews have one day of rest called the Sabbath which occurs on the 7th day.

In the Apostolic traditions we have two days of rest, one is called Sabbath which is on the 7th day and the other is called the Lord's Day which occurs on Sunday. Hence...the weekend.

Christians are not obligated to observe Sabbath but many do in the Apostolic tradition has a day of rest and recreation while they reserve Sunday, the Lord's Day as a day of remembrance of the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Jay and I answered. Ignatius of Antioch is a sufficient source, he was a Church Father.

The Jews have one day of rest called the Sabbath which occurs on the 7th day.

In the Apostolic traditions we have two days of rest, one is called Sabbath which is on the 7th day and the other is called the Lord's Day which occurs on Sunday. Hence...the weekend.

Christians are not obligated to observe Sabbath but many do in the Apostolic tradition has a day of rest and recreation while they reserve Sunday, the Lord's Day as a day of remembrance of the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

An early church father would not be enough to show what today Catholics believe. There have been many differences since then. Early church fathers are not seen as scripture and thus were not taken as if what they said could not be changed. After all, they were creating ideas themselves.
 
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