Why Israel belongs to the Jews

[Murdoch1232]

LOL!

Someone must have forgot to pass the memo. Israel is a secular state

Well, on paper it is, anyways. And so is the United States. I believe that in practice, although neither state can be called a theocracy, things are much more complicated.

 

[Levite]

Is there really not enough Israel bashing and anti-Semitism on this forum that someone had to make a thread to ask for a little more? I mean, I'll take a stand for my people when people talk smack about us, sure, but why go looking for fights?

And of the various things to throw down about, why something like "the land of Israel belongs to the Jews," which no Jews ever were in doubt about, most non-Jews probably don't care about one way or the other, and most of the non-Jews who do care are never going to be convinced about anyhow?

This just seems a singularly masochistic and pointless endeavor.

 

[Murdoch1232]

Is there really not enough Israel bashing and anti-Semitism on this forum that someone had to make a thread to ask for a little more? I mean, I'll take a stand for my people when people talk smack about us, sure, but why go looking for fights?

And of the various things to throw down about, why something like "the land of Israel belongs to the Jews," which no Jews ever were in doubt about, most non-Jews probably don't care about one way or the other, and most of the non-Jews who do care are never going to be convinced about anyhow?

This just seems a singularly masochistic and pointless endeavor.

I would say that sometimes, the attitudes of some Zionists (both Jews and Christian) are more detrimental to Israel than anything else combined. There would probably be more people, even Arabs, who wouldn't mind having an Israel around, if it weren't for such fanatical supporters.

I am not saying that every person who supports Israel is a fanatic, but there certainly are people who ruin it for everyone else.

 

[Caladan]

Is there really not enough Israel bashing and anti-Semitism on this forum that someone had to make a thread to ask for a little more? I mean, I'll take a stand for my people when people talk smack about us, sure, but why go looking for fights?

And of the various things to throw down about, why something like "the land of Israel belongs to the Jews," which no Jews ever were in doubt about, most non-Jews probably don't care about one way or the other, and most of the non-Jews who do care are never going to be convinced about anyhow?

This just seems a singularly masochistic and pointless endeavor.

I believe this thread is a response to this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/132377-holy-land-jews.htm

However, I have no idea why it was opened as a separate thread instead. Like you, I think this is a pointless endeavour which draws unnecessary attention.

 

[Pastek]

all the Children of Jacob(Israel) were righteous.

All ? Yeah. I remember some stories about one of Jacob's sons. Something not really "righteous"

26.Judah said to his brothers, “What will we gain if we kill our brother and cover up his blood?

27.Come, let’s sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh and blood. ” His brothers agreed.
(Genesis 37)

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22.While Israel was living in that region,Reuben went in and slept with his father’s concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.
(Genesis 35)
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So at the end of this, Egypt is completely and utterly devastated and destroyed, and the Jewish people begin a remarkable journey of spirituality in the desert

Yes. Don't forget the story of the golden calf, too.

Judaism stands out as the only religion that didn't begin from the preachings of one loner who claimed that God had spoke to him, like for example, Christianity and Islam solely base their foundations on one man's dreams.

Ah ... and Abraham ? He was preaching alone to his father and his people, before leaving Mesopotamia). And he preached alone like Noah. Like Jonas.
So, what the problem about Jesus and Muhammad ?

Of course, we can't talk about a "specific religion". But there were God's messangers.

Judaism on the other hand, didn't completely believe in Moses' claim to be the prophet of god, until all of them together had experienced prophecy , only then when they saw with their own eyes and heard with their own ears God's glorious presence when he revealed himself to them and said in the Ten Commandments

Yes, you need that to believe. Like people at the time of Noah, Lot or Jonas : believing only if there is miracle. And you know what happened to those you didn't believe at Noah and Lot ....

Plus, it was after beeing saved by Pharaoe. Why needing again to see God ?
The 7 miracles to Pharaoe and the miracle of the sea wasn't enought ?

God of Israel had chosen the Jewish people and all converts to Judaism who joined the Jews all throughout the years as his Chosen People and a Holy nation and a Kingdom of Priests. To them the God of Israel had performed all the great miracles that are recorded in the Torah, to them and not to Muslims, not to Christians, and not to hindus, and not to anyone else for that matter.

We have no problem with this. God choose who He wants.

So there is absolutely no logical or rational justification to this Muslim invention that defies all common sense and wisdom, and was just invented by the first Muslims to somehow try to steal the Title of Israel from the Jewish people, and was only believed by the pagans of that time who knew no better, and had no tools to counter the first missionaries of Islam, who really didn't give any choice to anyone just like the first Christians, it was either accept their 'claims' or be killed, so much for free will or free choice.

You seems to not like Ismael very much. But he was the son of Abraham too.
If God wanted that Hagar and Ismael are in an other land, that's because God is All Wise and He wanted that the nation of Ismael be at a specific place.

You know, i'm glad that you talk many times about the King Solomon.
Because it seems according to the Hebrew Scriptures, that the jews broked many, many, many rules.
Like praying other gods, not doing the shabbat etc ...

And because of that, your ancestors LOST the land of Israel.

You lost it because they (your ancestors) didn't respected the Covenant.
God is supposed to be with you, as long as you respect the engagement. And it wasn't the case.

So, you must wait for the Messiah as much as i know.
Plus, many jews nowadays still don't really respect the covenant.
I don't want to judge anyone, but if you think that Israel is your land you must respecting FIRST your rules. And you must accept the exil too, because it was God's decision/sanction

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In my opinion, to use the Torah to in some way validate the State of Israel is drop-dead stupid and predictably results in worthless threads such as this.

 

[Rational_Mind]

In my opinion, to use the Torah to in some way validate the State of Israeli is drop-dead stupid and predictably results in worthless threads such as this.

Thanks for raising the respect of followers of Judaism in my eyes. It is good when one defends their own faith. I was scared everyone Jewish on RF were on the same page with the OP.