Why Jesus must be the Messiah

[IndigoChild5559]

If you list all the Bible prophecies that you think apply to Jesus, you will see that some have to do with his birth, others with his anointing, others with his empowerment as king, others as executioner of judgment, etc. They are not all done at the same time.

They are all done in the same lifetime, or the man is not the messiah.

 

[Trailblazer]

It only makes sense, since we only get one lifetime.

It doesn't make sense to me. Unless the scriptures say that the messiah will fulfill the prophecies himself, there is no reason to think "he" will be the one who fulfills them, which means they don't have to be fulfilled by him, or during his lifetime.

Isaiah 2:4 And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people;
Obviously this refers to what the messiah will do, so it has to happen during His lifetime

Note the semicolon ; and the word they.

; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

This will happen 'after' the messiah comes since it is part of the same verse, but the verse does not say the messiah will do any of this himself, it says "they" will do it, so there is no reason to think it will happen during the messiah's lifetime.

 

[Trailblazer]

They are all done in the same lifetime, or the man is not the messiah.

Sorry but no. Not unless the scriptures say that. If they don't say that there is no reason to believe it.
Nowhere do any scriptures say that they are all done during the lifetime of the messiah, I can guarantee it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope. He already had his chance.

True, he had his chance, but that was never part of the mission of Jesus so he isn't coming back to do it, which is why he said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Wandering Monk]

If, as the Christian world proclaims, Jesus has come to do away with the Law, he is not only a false prophet (regardless of any miracles) but is doing the exact OPPOSITE of Messiah (and so is an antichrist) and those who try to convert Jews to that Jesus are enticers. No observant Jew could EVER believe that this Jesus (who negates the Law) is Messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not surprised at this, given that you are a different religion. Baha'i has a totally different concept of what the messiah is from what Jews hold to. It doesn't bother me that you are Baha'i, as Baha'i are very good, very loving people. But simply be aware that what your religion teaches about the Messiah is significantly different than what Judaism teaches.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry but no. Not unless the scriptures say that. If they don't say that there is no reason to believe it.
Nowhere do any scriptures say that they are all done during the lifetime of the messiah, I can guarantee it.

Trailblazer, all we have is one lifetime each.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not surprised at this, given that you are a different religion. Baha'i has a totally different concept of what the messiah is from what Jews hold to. It doesn't bother me that you are Baha'i, as Baha'i are very good, very loving people. But simply be aware that what your religion teaches about the Messiah is significantly different than what Judaism teaches.

I am well aware of that, but so what? What a religion teaches is not necessarily accurate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, all we have is one lifetime each.

So what? Are you going to present any scriptures say that the messianic prophecies will all be fulfilled during the lifetime of the messiah?
That is all that is pertinent to this discussion.

 

[paarsurrey]

But as I was just saying to @paarsurrey, there was nothing about Jesus that was messiah-like. And in particular, he said out loud that he was NOT going to free the Jews from Roman rule, which is the BIG reason you'd want a messiah at that time.

One is describing about the Jewish-Messiah's concept not the Israelite-Messiah's concept of a truthful prophet/messenger of G-d , right?

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

One is describing about the Jewish-Messiah's concept not the Israelite-Messiah's concept of a truthful prophet/messenger of G-d , right?

Regards

"Jewish messiah" and "Israelite Messiah" mean exactly the same thing.

 

[blü 2]

One is describing about the Jewish-Messiah's concept not the Israelite-Messiah's concept of a truthful prophet/messenger of G-d , right?

Regards

The discussion concerned the Christian claim that the Jews knew Jesus was the messiah but rejected him. My point was that Jesus in no way looked like a messiah when seen through 1st century Jewish eyes, and that anyway Jesus wasn't seen at all in Jerusalem till the very end.

And that's assuming Mark's report is accurate, which is also wide open to dispute.

 

[Eli G]

The Jewish religious leaders did not accept Jesus NOT BECAUSE messianic prophecies had not been fulfilled in him or because he did not have works to demonstrate his messiahship. They did not accept him because if they recognized him as Messiah, their religious leadership would end. Many ordinary Jews DID accept Jesus as Messiah in the first century.

Ask yourself: If a Jew not recognized by the current Jewish leadership were to present himself today as the legal heir to the throne of David, do you think the current Jewish leaders would recognize him and accept his messiahship? The answer is simple: THEY WOULD NOT, exactly the same as they did not in the first century AND FOR THE SAME REASONS. Religious leaders do not accept representatives of God that they do not recognize, because they believe that God needs to use them to select him. Public acceptance of a God-anointed leader who has not been identified by religious leaders jeopardizes their position. If any modern messiah appears without the authorization of the modern Jewish leaders, they will still nullify him.

The non-acceptance of Jesus as Messiah by the Jewish leaders of his time in no way nullifies his identification, which has since been recognized not only by many Jews but by millions and millions of people ever since. God's decisions have nothing to do with human intrigues.

As for the supposed limited human life that the Jews attribute to the messiah they are still waiting for, Scripture categorically refutes them:

Dan. 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

Since the Jews no longer have the power of God in their favor, their thoughts have turned into simple political and materialistic human ideologies. Their religion is just one more. Anyone of any modern religion has to sincerely seek God somewhere where political interests do not enter.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Jewish religious leaders did not accept Jesus NOT BECAUSE messianic prophecies had not been fulfilled in him or because he did not have works to demonstrate his messiahship. They did not accept him because if they recognized him as Messiah, their religious leadership would end.

What baloney.

 

[Eli G]

Again: THOUSANDS of Jews did accept Jesus messiahship in the first century.
Modern Jews are just the followers of those who didn't, the ones who rejected him and killed him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Again: THOUSANDS of Jews did accept Jesus messiahship in the first century.
Modern Jews are just the followers of those who didn't, the ones who rejected him and killed him.

Thousands? when there were millions of Jews? Hardly significant.

Again, I didn't kill Jesus. I wasn't even in the neighborhood.

 

[Eli G]

Not matter the number. God does not need all Jews to accept his Messiah.
Did all the Israelites accept the prophets? Their reputation precedes them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not matter the number. God does not need all Jews to accept his Messiah.
Did all the Israelites accept the prophets? Their reputation precedes them.

It makes no sense for Christians to believe that God entrusted the Jews with his oracles, only to not listen to us when we try to explain to them that Jesus was not a valid messiah. That Jews have resisted becoming Christians for 2000 years causes a serious credibility problem for Chrisitans.

 

[Eli G]

Jehovah does not need traitors.

Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the graves of the prophets and decorate the tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have shared with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore, you are testifying against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of your forefathers.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jehovah does not need traitors.

God is not a man. Worshiping a man is a form of idolatry. For this reason, Judaism and Christianity will always be incompatible.