Why Jesus?

[lilithu]

That's true, although my point was that Jesus's teachings, like Buddha's, weren't totally original but based on those already present.
The counter-intuitive teachings of the Sermon on the Mount didn't occur spontaneously and in isolation, but were exaggerations and reworkings of Old Testament concepts.

Absolutely.

Sure, i was just answering Why Jesus?
We don't know John the Baptist's message, and we don't really know that Jesus's message was really his, i'm just saying that "Why Jesus?" is the same as Why Arthur? or Why Odysseus? The message could have been given to anyone, the man for all we know is inconsequential.

I both agree and disagree. I agree that messages get idealized over time, and that we don't really know much about Jesus. But I still want to emphasize, especially in the context of the OP, that not any old person is the same as any other person. Some people reflect a bigger message, a bigger truth, and others reflect the particulars of their own time. Whoever it was that taught the sermon on the mount, and we might as well call that person(s) Jesus, that person is on a different level than Larry Flint, imo. (I can't believe I even have to say that!)

 

[Halcyon]

Whoever it was that taught the sermon on the mount, and we might as well call that person(s) Jesus, that person is on a different level than Larry Flint, imo. (I can't believe I even have to say that!)

Lol, i agree with that, although i don't know who Larry Flint is .
Although personally i think there should be a Church of Superman, his message has got to be at least as good as Jesus's.

To be serious though, i think the real reason Jesus is so big is because, like other have said above, people thought/think he's God.
The message, i'm sure, has been preached a thousand times by a thousand different people over the millenia. It's just that Jesus was lucky enough to have an influential man declare him God, and so the message that attached to him became him. It could have been John, or Zechariah or Mary even, but the hand of fate dealt the card to Jesus.

 

[lilithu]

Lol, i agree with that, although i don't know who Larry Flint is .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Flynt

I especially "like" this quote by him:
"Women are here to serve men. Look, they got to squat to p***. Hell, that proves it"

Although personally i think there should be a Church of Superman, his message has got to be at least as good as Jesus's.

You mean "fighting for truth, justice, and the American Way"? I'll take Jesus, thanks.

 

[Halcyon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Flynt

Oh...

You mean "fighting for truth, justice, and the American Way"? I'll take Jesus, thanks.

You mean Kryptonian way surely?

I was thinking of mainly the Truth and Justice part, saving little old ladies, doing nice things if you have the means etc blah blah...

 

[blueman]

You need to prove that the bible is true before you can produce it as 'evidence'.

No I don't have to prove it's true. The onus is on you to prove it's false.


No there wern't.

Josephus (Jewish) and Tacitus (Roman), among others.

 

[lilithu]

You mean Kryptonian way surely?

Heck no. Superman may have immigrated from Krypton but he's an American. He grew up in Smallville, USA (which I think is in Kansas but most certainly is somewhere in the Midwest, the heartland of America). His parents were farmers, who raised him with good old-fashioned American values.

lol, this is totally off-topic really, but surely you've noticed how steeped in American mythology the Superman comics are? Even the way he stands, with his chest out and hands on his hips, looking off into the horizon...savior of the world. :sarcastic


(And "fighting for truth, justice, and the American way" really was Superman's motto.)

 

[pladecalvo]

Josephus (Jewish) and Tacitus (Roman), among others.

Josephus.
Not even going to give it the benefit of the doubt and say it “almost certainly” is a forgery—there’s really no doubt about this. The writing style doesn’t mesh with the rest of the book, and the passage didn’t appear at all until several centuries after Antiquities of the Jews was written. Origen, an early Christian theologian, said Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah, and indeed he didn’t, as his other writings show. Scholars on both sides of the religious fence agree that the passage in 'Antiquties' is a forgery.

Tacitus.
Tacitus mentions the Christians, not Christ himself, and he uses Christ as a proper name rather than a title. He doesn’t mention the persecution of Christians anywhere else, and this particular passage isn’t quoted by anyone until much later, even by early Christian apologists who definitely would have used this as propaganda if they could have. In fact, the passage didn’t appear at all until the 15th century, when Johannes de Spire published the works of Tacitus in Venice.

Any others you would like to mention?

 

[cardero]

JamesThePersian writes: The answer is not in what He did but in who He is.

Who is He? Does even Jesus think He is what others say He is?

JamesThePersian writes: Unfortunately, the answer of who He is flies directly counter to your premise in this post that he was simply a 'man called Jesus'.

Don’t get me wrong, I only want to know.

 

[cardero]

Michel writes: As far as jesus is concerned, I agree with the point James made; on the other hand, I think that there are some wonderful people out "there" who are on the way to being "Jesus-like" .

There are also others (in my opinion) that have far exceeded Jesus. There are firemen, soldiers, police officers who have devoted half their earthly existence risking their lives everyday to provide a safe environment. Experienced doctor’s who cure illnesses and even rescue people from the brink of death everyday. Could not all these people have come from God? Where are the statues, where are the erected temples for worship, where is the congregated effort to preach worldwide in their memory? Where are the Bibles written in their name?

 

[cardero]

Robtex writes: actually you don't even know if those scriptures are fictional narratives with a fictional savior or not so the entire idea of christianty is an article of faith.
Also is isn't something you christians are forced to do. It is something you chose to do. The more interesting question would be why do you make this choice?

Well I am not as much as a follower as most people are but I do respect the belief enough to keep the possibility open. One of the concerns I have about the practice of exalting Jesus above everything else in my life is the fact that not only can I not feel the effects of his ministry but in a comparison to observing current achievments they seem to pale in effect to the impression that everyone would believe Jesus intended. For example, I can appreciate the wisdom of his teachings but the sacrifice for our sins doesn’t seem to leave the desired impression that it should. Again, you are right, this is a choice.

Robtex writes: superman is a fictional character. but certainly has jesus like qualities in his blood. the perception of chrisitans of jesus was that he is a non-fictional character.

Yes but would I find it strange that Jesus and the apostles thwarted an alien invasion (or demons by their description) in the pages of the Bible? No. Would I find it strange that Jesus assembled a “Justice League” complete with magic rings, golden lassos, fisherman who absorbed their strength from the water or dark detectives who used the shadow of the night to combat the evils of the world? No, in my position I can conclude no difference.

There is an urban legend in which the actor George Reeves (dressed in his Superman costume) attended a children’s function in which a small boy had secured his father’s gun with the intention of testing the “Man Of Steel’s” invuneralbility. This child was so thoroughly convinced that his hero was standing before him, that he was ready to put a bullet in Mr. Reeve’s heart. The story concludes that George Reeves managed to persuade the child to hand over the pistol and the situation was averted. I often wonder if adults share a juvenile fascination with their heroes or saviors and if they are also prepared to test their faith, even if it means shooting a hole through the theories.

Robtex writes: I would be curious as to why the other real life people listed as well as your own personal heros who lived in your lifetime, pale in comparison to Jesus to you guys.

I think it may have something to do with their contributions. The people mentioned are just a few examples and they continue to bring delight and satisfaction to many people yesterday and today. In some cases their contributions are timeless and verifiable. Most have sacrificed much or have not received the recognition that they truly deserve but there are many that we still do not know about.

 

[cardero]

There once was a man called Jesus. He was born a human, lived a typical human life as a carpenter, and died a human death. Between his birth and death He achieved something that no other human ever has, full realization. Jesus awoke.

This awakening is something that is possible for each of us but the probability of us finding the way on our own is virtually zero. Jesus awoke because He was meant to. He had help.

Jesus came to the earth to experience human life because He was sent to this area of the universe to represent God.

You do not have to believe in Jesus at all but read His parables, look at what He taught (forgiveness) and decide for yourself whether it is something that you will strive for.

I agree with everything with the exception of the highlighted sentence. I believe Jesus' purpose was His own. I also agree that everyone (if they desired) could easily have filled the complete role that Jesus portrayed in the Bible.

 

[!Fluffy!]

I agree with everything with the exception of the highlighted sentence. I believe Jesus' purpose was His own. I also agree that everyone (if they desired) could easily have filled the complete role that Jesus portrayed in the Bible.

i would be interested to know how you arrived at these conclusions. On what do you base your beliefs?

 

[cardero]

i would be interested to know how you arrived at these conclusions. On what do you base your beliefs?

Though it is hard for me to grasp the miracles or the performance of them I would believe that they could be accomplished once we had an understanding of them. To many, the miracles would seem like magic. This may have to do with the era being so primitive (someone once told me that anyone with a BIC lighter could have easily qualified to be a Christ.). I think once someone understands how to perform these miracles they probably wouldn’t seem like magic at all but sophisticated science. The teachings and attitude of Jesus were also ahead of his time but maybe just another way to “think out of the box” and go against the standard thinking of that time.



As for Super Universe’s comment about representing GOD this is all I got but it seems to make a great deal of sense to me in accordance to my other understandings.

As I look back on the life of Jesus, I do feel his heart was in the CORRECT place. I do respect the example he has set for many people as long as you derive the CORRECT meaning from it. That meaning stands as follows: The man they called Jesus lived his life according to the way he wanted to live it. He knew what his potential as a human BEing was, he set out to accomplish this, and he did. Not by what everyONE wanted him to become but what he decided he should BE. He had a firm grasp on the workings of the Universe and used them to his advantage, but he did not take advantage of them. He did not abuse his power or his LOVE for people. He had every opportunity to do so and didn't. He was not perfect but strived to BE so. That is to BE commended no matter who the individual is.

He knew the TRUE PURPOSE of life and set out to live his life that way. He knew who he was and what he was capable of doing.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Jesus The Christ
Pg: 119, 122

 

[!Fluffy!]

Thank you cardero for your patience, but your replies have opened up another can of worms for me...

Though it is hard for me to grasp the miracles or the performance of them I would believe that they could be accomplished once we had an understanding of them. To many, the miracles would seem like magic. This may have to do with the era being so primitive (someone once told me that anyone with a BIC lighter could have easily qualified to be a Christ.). I think once someone understands how to perform these miracles they probably wouldn’t seem like magic at all but sophisticated science.

Miracles like... what? Is there some reliable evidence you could share regarding this? I mean, what makes you think Jesus performed miracles?

The teachings and attitude of Jesus were also ahead of his time but maybe just another way to “think out of the box” and go against the standard thinking of that time.

What teachings?? What attitude??

As for Super Universe’s comment about representing GOD this is all I got but it seems to make a great deal of sense to me in accordance to my other understandings.

As I look back on the life of Jesus, I do feel his heart was in the CORRECT place. I do respect the example he has set for many people as long as you derive the CORRECT meaning from it. That meaning stands as follows: The man they called Jesus lived his life according to the way he wanted to live it. He knew what his potential as a human BEing was, he set out to accomplish this, and he did. Not by what everyONE wanted him to become but what he decided he should BE. He had a firm grasp on the workings of the Universe and used them to his advantage, but he did not take advantage of them. He did not abuse his power or his LOVE for people. He had every opportunity to do so and didn't. He was not perfect but strived to BE so. That is to BE commended no matter who the individual is.

He knew the TRUE PURPOSE of life and set out to live his life that way. He knew who he was and what he was capable of doing.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Jesus The Christ
Pg: 119, 122

The person who wrote this, by what authority do you think they presume to know such things? Did they actually TALK to God, or what? Could they teletransport back 2000 years and walk around Palestine observing "Jesus"?? How do they even know this "Jesus" existed??

Sorry, cardero I am not on the attack, it just seems there is an awful lot of assumin' goin on, about someone who may or may not have walked the earth a couple thousand years ago.

(for purposes of this conversation, you can ignore my signature. i am trying very hard to understand your views here in an objective and purely rational way)

 

[Super Universe]

Because the New Testament does not include the details from Jesus earlier life people don't get a true understanding of Him as a human being. The New Testament thrusts Jesus into His role as king and misses all the great drama that He endured as He struggled to understand His true indentity.

Jesus always knew He was special, even moreso than the ordinary child. He loved to ask questions and he loved and respected His parents greatly. One day there was an earthquake and Jesus asked His human father what caused it but His father did not know. This was quite discerning to Him, He had thought his human father knew everything.

Another day Jesus was rebuked by His mother for creating an image, this was not allowed by their faith because it is image worship. When Joseph returned home Jesus defended Himself and pointed out the image hanging on the front door. Joseph then tore it down. Jesus debated the priests in the temple and pointed out the hypocrasy.

Jesus began to realize that the people He was with were simple. They were knowledgable in trades but none of them were dreamers, none was a philosopher nor did they wish to be. They just did what they had to do to get by or what they were told to do and they followed the traditions without question. The traditions that someone else created.

So, just as an Indigo child does today Jesus began to trust Himself more than His parents or others of the time and all through His growing years the veil was surely being lifted slowly and gently. As the time for Him to begin His Father's (God's) work neared Jesus began spending more time alone. He was quite the meditator.

Jesus knew the Jews were waiting for and expecting a messiah to be their king and deliver them from the Romans but Jesus did not wish to be a king of only one group of people so upon full realization He called Himself the Son of man and refused the title of messiah. He was not the king appointed by the Jews, He was the representative of the Creator on earth.

The magical things He performed were not tricks and He had assistance from guardian angels but no physical law was ever broken (something quite impossible). The abrogation of time was performed to assist Jesus in His miracles.

 

[blueman]

Josephus.
Not even going to give it the benefit of the doubt and say it “almost certainly” is a forgery—there’s really no doubt about this. The writing style doesn’t mesh with the rest of the book, and the passage didn’t appear at all until several centuries after Antiquities of the Jews was written. Origen, an early Christian theologian, said Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah, and indeed he didn’t, as his other writings show. Scholars on both sides of the religious fence agree that the passage in 'Antiquties' is a forgery.

Tacitus.
Tacitus mentions the Christians, not Christ himself, and he uses Christ as a proper name rather than a title. He doesn’t mention the persecution of Christians anywhere else, and this particular passage isn’t quoted by anyone until much later, even by early Christian apologists who definitely would have used this as propaganda if they could have. In fact, the passage didn’t appear at all until the 15th century, when Johannes de Spire published the works of Tacitus in Venice.

Any others you would like to mention?

There is no relevant proof of it being forged and the fact that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah is not a news flash due to the fact many Jews didn't prescribe to the belief either. The forgery issue is purely speculative on your part as well as the explanation of how Tacitus used the name Christ in his writings. There is historical and circumstantial evidence to support the existence, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So much, that skeptics like yourself are painstankingly trying to prove otherwise. The attempts are futile.

 

[Sonic247]

My guess would be the time and setting, people were looking for a Messiah and, largely through the efforts of Paul, they got one.

Why Jesus was chosen over other contemporary "miracle workers" such as John the Baptist and Hanina ben Dosa, well, only God knows.
Perhaps his story was easier to transform into a Gentile understanding. Let's face it, without Paul and his Gentile mission the Jesus sect would have remained an obscure Jewish sect and, more than likely, died out.

Much like King Arthur or Robin Hood, we have a real man (most probably) who is plucked from relative obscurity by chance, in Jesus's case it was the chance conversion of an outspoken, educated man - Paul. He has his story exaggerated upon over time until the original events are barely recognisable, and the myth-man is born.

This doesn't happen today, not in the west anyway, because with our modern scepticism and worldwide media, myth-men have a hard time getting started.
Although, if Koresh had had more followers, and less guns, there could have been a future myth-man in the making with him - that judging from the devotion of his followers.

Just wanted to point out real quik that John the Baptist didn't perform any miracles.

 

[cardero]

Moon Woman writes: Thank you cardero for your patience, but your replies have opened up another can of worms for me... I am not on the attack, it just seems there is an awful lot of assumin' goin on, about someone who may or may not have walked the earth a couple thousand years ago.

I do not blame your hesitation because one of the hardest things about gathering this kind of information is bringing it out of the realm of assumption. These particular historical conversations that I have had with GOD are the hardest to verify or conclude truthfully. I am also trying to unravel these passages while comparing them to what has already been documented in past writings.

Moon Woman writes: Miracles like... what? Is there some reliable evidence you could share regarding this? I mean, what makes you think Jesus performed miracles?

From what I am to understand many of the “miracles” seem to have occurred (but there is room to believe that they did not occur exactly as has been recorded by Biblical authors) because the entity that I have spoken to doesn’t seem to deny the events just the divinity.


Perhaps the best way to come to terms with this is to use the analogy of how people go to school to become professionals in the field of medicine. There is a great deal humans do not K(NOW) about healing and the way the body works and functions. Jesus did not K(NOW) what he could or could not do until he learned and PROVED it to himself. Yes, the power is within everyone, but it must BE learned and applied for the benefit of humankind. Jesus was ALL(WAYS) a step ahead in his thinking, yet he was not a man ahead of his time. There is no such thing as a "misplaced Christ"; these "Christs" are not super-human but develop a better UNDERSTANDING.

Once you have this energy about you, you can do it ALL. You can perform your own "miracles" – except you will learn they are not miracles at ALL but simple acts of Universal Law. Jesus did not perform miracles; he performed acts of kindness. LOVE was the energy to fuel his miracles, not magic.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Jesus The Christ
Pg: 114,117

Moon Woman writes: What teachings?? What attitude??

This is another area where GOD explains to me that Jesus was very knowledgeable and always interested in wondering how the world around him operated.

Jesus was a great healer, a great prophet, and a great teacher because this is what he set out to accomplish for himself. He worked hard for it. He trained himself to UNDERSTAND, to LOVE, to heal, to FORGIVE. I did not hand him this power exclusively so he could segregate himself from humankind.

Another claim to Jesus' fame was his open-mindedness, BEing open and receptive to everything. Like him, do not give in or sway to the workings of your up-bringing or the ways and traditions of this system of things. Jesus divorced himself from the ways of the world early in life but was open to everything…literally.

They think of Jesus as BEing supernatural and unapproachable, that his wisdom or his ways of life were unthinkable, impractical, and unobtainable. However, everyONE has the potential to BE like Jesus. This is indeed what he was trying to teach at a time most people believed the opposite.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Jesus The Christ
Pg: 114, 116, 118

Moon Woman writes: The person who wrote this, by what authority do you think they presume to know such things? Did they actually TALK to God, or what? Could they teletransport back 2000 years and walk around Palestine observing "Jesus"?? How do they even know this "Jesus" existed??

The BEIng who has spoken to me claims to have observed these events as they “unfolded”. I do not put any authority in these claims and the BEing who claims to be GOD does not expect me to accept these claims with faith. I would assume that if the BEIng I have been conversing with does PROVE to be GOD than this BEIng would not only have a solid memory but also the best seat in the house concerning/observing all things historical.

 

[pladecalvo]

There is no relevant proof of it being forged and the fact that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah is not a news flash due to the fact many Jews didn't prescribe to the belief either.

There is overwhelming evidence that says the passage is forged.

The forgery issue is purely speculative on your part as well as the explanation of how Tacitus used the name Christ in his writings.

It's not speculation on my part. It is the consensus of historical scholars, even religious ones.

There is historical and circumstantial evidence to support the existence, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Then produce it.

 

[Super Universe]

The BEIng who has spoken to me claims to have observed these events as they “unfolded”. I do not put any authority in these claims and the BEing who claims to be GOD does not expect me to accept these claims with faith. I would assume that if the BEIng I have been conversing with does PROVE to be GOD than this BEIng would not only have a solid memory but also the best seat in the house concerning/observing all things historical.

The BEIng who has spoken to me claims to have observed these events as they "unfolded". I do not put any authority in these claims and the BEing who claims to be GOD does not expect me to accept these claims with faith. I would assume that if the BEIng I have been conversing with does PROVE to be GOD than this BEIng would not only have a solid memory but also the best seat in the house concerning/observing all things historical.

Jesus is not God and He never claimed He was God. Jesus simply said He is the Son of God. While we are the children of God.

Christ was created from God as an already mature being with the specific purpose of representing God's will for this part of the universe.

The children of God are created from God very raw and without any maturity and with no specific purpose. We choose the biologic personalities we join with to experience and learn and if we want to keep a personality, we may. We have no purpose other than to explore and experience everything we can and eventually return home with an incredible story to tell.

What really worries me Cardero is this being that you are channeling who claims to be God. Higher dimensional beings know how easily humans will believe that a voice inside their head is God. I would say that you are simply conversing with your guardian angel but they would never claim to be God.

God does not interfere with us because it would violate His law of free will. It's against the whole purpose of the earth. We come here to experience separation from God, to be on our own. God does not need to impress humans or prove His existence and there are many beings in the universe, both good and selfish, that are able to telepathically connect with us. And time travel isn't above the abilities of these beings but changing the events is.

Do you always begin your sessions by stating that you wish to only talk with a being who is willing to follow what's in your best interests?

I would warn you to question everything this being says and always maintain a sense of control. Perhaps you could ask it a few questions, I would be quite interested in the answers.
-Are you in service to others or service to self?
-What is the source of gravity?
-What is at the center of the earth?
-What are the Animus?
-Why are the prime numbers seven and eleven significant in the multi-verse?
-What is the truth about Planet X?