Why Men?

[DallasApple]

Where did the idea come from that the Bible is ""God-breathed", the infallible 100% Truth"?

I think it was like when this group of MEN got together one day..and picked and choosed which inspired(God breathed) devine scripture got put in the "book"..Maybe a couple hundred or so years after they were all written...It was "Cannonized"..(is that right?)

They tossed many off them..If you read those you are a "gnostic"..

Love

Dallas

 

[Green Gaia]

I think it was like when this group of MEN got together one day..and picked and choosed which inspired(God breathed) devine scripture got put in the "book"..Maybe a couple hundred or so years after they were all written...It was "Cannonized"..(is that right?)

They tossed many off them..If you read those you are a "gnostic"..

Love

Dallas

Actually I'd really like to know if there is a scriptural basis for that belief or if it is just generally accepted as true among certian groups of Christians.

 

[Random]

Why is it, that in religion, men have generally been held in high regard to women?

So many reasons. But primarily, superiority in the arts and sciences. The secular end is all that really matters in religion - once you realize this, questions about the disparity of the sexes in religion evaporate like dew. Of course it was very different once, women were generally held to be holy, sacrosanct and the spiritual sex, but to be honest they ****** that view up themselves with the help of men who stood to profit greatly from assuming their roles as spiritual guides and oracles of God.

Now, i know that in some beliefs or religions women and men have been regarded equal, but in general, in all religions men have been in more than one instance been held in higher regard?

It's a hopelessly complicated situation to judge unless you can tell the difference between religion and spirituality. The former is modelled on the latter, but the systemization of wisdom, philosophy and spiritual knowlege (or gnosis) and their transformation into dogma are always done to bury the real reasons that reveal why men are regarded as superior to women in these matters...

What is it that women did, or not do that made them inferior to men?

A nightmare question. Believe me, you probably don't want to know the answer. Don't go there, take my advice...

Is there a sign of that changing?

Under the present system of things, which began six odd thousand years ago, there is no chance of that changing. Matriarchy always ends up as fascism in a monied system, money corrupts everything but the egos of men. It's, as I say, so hopelessly complicated as to be not worth bothering about. Console yourself with the conceit that women like men being in charge, women want men to rule society and the family, women want men to be captain of the good ship Mankind...lie to yourself if need be.

Of course i do not actually think men are superior, in case it sounded like that.

Why don't you? The hard and irrefutable evidence of Men's superiority over females in this world is absolutely everywhere, just look around you! They succeeded in their diabolical, misbegotten quest for total control WITH THE HELP OF WOMEN! They won the Throne, and now they're never going to relinquish it, EVER. All men are kings and gods now, and women either livestock in the great Market of Life or at best just loyal First Mates on good ship Mankind. Don't you get that? What's so hard to understand? Let it go.

The truth is this - women had the chance to be what men are today, and they gave it up for love. For love of Man. It's sad, it's shocking, it's inconceivable to us now, but that's it. And that sacrifice, however abused or taken advantage of by man, cannot be undone and is irreversible.

 

[DallasApple]

Paul's Charge to Timothy

10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED AND IS USEFUL for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Apparently Paul told Timothy Green Gaia...

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Thats..2 Timothy 3..verses 10-17

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

But one thing...Paul said "all scripture"...He did not say "the Bible"..the Bible didnt exist when he said that...So even if you take Timothy at his word Paul said that..And then you take Paul at his word its true...He wasnt talking about the Bible..he said ALL scripture...

Love

Dallas

 

[Green Gaia]

Ah well, we won't get into what I think about Paul...

 

[DallasApple]

Ah well, we won't get into what I think about Paul...

Neither do "we"..(I)

Love

Dallas

 

[Falvlun]

The problem is YOU believe that..Not "all " Christians..

I am not a Christian, so I do not personally believe this. I would be willing to wager, however, that the majority of Christians do believe the Bible to be the infallible Word of God. Differences in interpretation do allow leeway for multiple readings of the same passage, though.

I do honestly want to know what alternative interpretations there are to those verses. They seem rather literal and cut-and-dry to me.

The other the problem is its TWISTED ..taken out of context and ZERO understanding is put on the TIMES it was written in with some Christians..

What is the context for those verses? They do not appear to be taken out of context, but seem to be entire thoughts to me. Do you know what is going on in the Bible immediately before and after those verses?

Yes, understanding the time something is written is important to the understanding of the writing. But you are talking about the Word of God. It shouldn't change with time. If God thought women should be submissive 2000 years ago, what made him change his mind since then?

By making one thing in the Bible subjective to the "time" it was written, you cast doubt on all things. Perhaps Jesus didn't rise from the dead... perhaps Mary wasn't a virgin... perhaps he didn't die for everyone's sins afterall. You redelegate Christianity to an obscure sect 2000 years ago that has no relevence in today's day and age.

The OTHER problem is some of the words meanings then are not how we commonly define them now...

I fail to see how the meaning of the word "head" has changed.

Don't you think the world's top translators have worked on the Bible in order to make it the best possible translation from its native languages? There are countless revisions that take into account the evolution of language. The re-definition of words is basically built in during translation.

And do not p.i.s.s on my leg and tell me its raining..Its ALL men that wrote the Bible..

I don't know what raining has to do with anything...

But, isn't it a little sexist to assume that it must be wrong since only men wrote it?

PS
I lost my first reply to you and so this is just the sloppy second time around... sorry for any incoherent-ness.

 

[DallasApple]

But, isn't it a little sexist to assume that it must be wrong since only men wrote it?

No its not...Considering WOMEN were considered PROPERTY when "said" men wrote it..

Its not a "lillte sexist"...

Its a "little obvious"...

Love

Dallas

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Not so, really, a lot of things that people tend to believe today, come from Christian beliefs. A lot of freinds of mine actually think we come from Adam and Eve, even if they are atheist. A lot of them think Jesus rose from the dead, now you could say this is due to ignorace, but i dont think so.

Just as i think that women being degraded does not exclusively come from Christianity, but from Abrahamic faith. Now, i am not blaming these religions for their portrayal of women, because i have seen verses of women being degraded in the Manu Smriti, but Hinduism has never influenced the world on a whole.

BTW, Manu is Hinduism's answer to Adam and Eve. See how i said answer to Adam and Eve? That goes to show how Christian belief has sub-consciously been instilled into the minds of westerners. Other things too, like the Gita is the Hindu bible. This is a term even used by Eastern religious scholars. Christian belief has influenced every corner of the world, with its beliefs. Especially now the East is in the process of westernisation, this will be come even more apparent.

Just keeping it quoted for Charity.

 

[DallasApple]

What is the context for those verses? They do not appear to be taken out of context, but seem to be entire thoughts to me. Do you know what is going on in the Bible immediately before and after those verses?

SOME women were Christians that had husbands that were NOT...and vice versa..(context)...

Women at the time were "property" of men..MAYBE they were told to be quiet so they wouldn't be killed..or punished...For speaking out...CONTEXT of the times..

Love

Dallas

 

[Falvlun]

But one thing...Paul said "all scripture"...He did not say "the Bible"..the Bible didnt exist when he said that...So even if you take Timothy at his word Paul said that..And then you take Paul at his word its true...He wasnt talking about the Bible..he said ALL scripture...

Now who is taking things out of context?

2 Tim 3:14-16 ---- 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...

Paul is writing a letter to Timothy, whose mother was a Jew. Holy Scriptures obviously refers to the Jewish teachings (Old Testament), that his mother would have taught him. Paul would not have designated them as holy if they were pagan scriptures, or what have you.

His use of "all Scripture" was probably referring to Jewish scripture, as there wasn't a New Testament yet. When the council convened to decide which books should be accepted to form the New Testament, they were designated Scripture too, and voila! The Bible is formed, and Pauls words are stretched to include the new stuff too.

Note that Scripture is capitalized, so it's not referring to any old "word of god", but the Word of God, by which they meant exclusively the books in the Old and New Testament. Just because it wasn't called the Bible then doesn't mean it wasn't referring to the same thing. Weren't you the one talking about how words change? Paul called it Scriptures, we call it the Bible.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So many reasons. But primarily, superiority in the arts and sciences. The secular end is all that really matters in religion - once you realize this, questions about the disparity of the sexes in religion evaporate like dew. Of course it was very different once, women were generally held to be holy, sacrosanct and the spiritual sex, but to be honest they ****** that view up themselves with the help of men who stood to profit greatly from assuming their roles as spiritual guides and oracles of God.



It's a hopelessly complicated situation to judge unless you can tell the difference between religion and spirituality. The former is modelled on the latter, but the systemization of wisdom, philosophy and spiritual knowlege (or gnosis) and their transformation into dogma are always done to bury the real reasons that reveal why men are regarded as superior to women in these matters...



A nightmare question. Believe me, you probably don't want to know the answer. Don't go there, take my advice...



Under the present system of things, which began six odd thousand years ago, there is no chance of that changing. Matriarchy always ends up as fascism in a monied system, money corrupts everything but the egos of men. It's, as I say, so hopelessly complicated as to be not worth bothering about. Console yourself with the conceit that women like men being in charge, women want men to rule society and the family, women want men to be captain of the good ship Mankind...lie to yourself if need be.



Why don't you? The hard and irrefutable evidence of Men's superiority over females in this world is absolutely everywhere, just look around you! They succeeded in their diabolical, misbegotten quest for total control WITH THE HELP OF WOMEN! They won the Throne, and now they're never going to relinquish it, EVER. All men are kings and gods now, and women either livestock in the great Market of Life or at best just loyal First Mates on good ship Mankind. Don't you get that? What's so hard to understand? Let it go.

The truth is this - women had the chance to be what men are today, and they gave it up for love. For love of Man. It's sad, it's shocking, it's inconceivable to us now, but that's it. And that sacrifice, however abused or taken advantage of by man, cannot be undone and is irreversible.

Gah, Conor! Will you stop teasing us and just say what you really want to say? :flirt:

I don't think it's irreversible, to be honest, but I wonder why you think we're doomed to live forever and ever and ever in patriarchal and misogynistic systems.

 

[DallasApple]

His use of "all Scripture" was probably referring to Jewish scripture, as there wasn't a New Testament yet.

When the council convened to decide which books should be accepted to form the New Testament, they were designated Scripture too, and voila! The Bible is formed, and Pauls words are stretched to include the new stuff too.

Paul is not my God...neither are the men who "voila" put the Bible together...

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

[QUOTI don't think it's irreversible, to be honest, but I wonder why you think we're doomed to live forever and ever and ever in patriarchal and misogynistic systems.E][/QUOTE]

We are not doomed...

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

and Pauls words are stretched to include the new stuff too.

Look at the world Paul lived in.....

Love

Dallas

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*giggle* Oh, I don't think we're doomed, either. I think people yearn for more women to speak up and to point us in the right direction.

 

[painted wolf]

Women tended to have a 'separate but equal' position in many Native American cultures.
Mostly this reflected different roles in society.

In fact among many nations it was common that the male spiritual leaders (priests/shamans/whatever) were actually distinguished by blurring those lines.
It wasn't uncommon for them to wear womens clothing or hair styles...

Transgendered people were often held in high regard because of their status as a natural bridge between the male and female.

Not to say that there wern't women spiritual leaders... but they have historically be less focused on by anthropologists and explorers. The joy of bias.

wa:do

 

[Random]

Gah, Conor! Will you stop teasing us and just say what you really want to say? :flirt:

Forgive me if I was too blunt...

I don't think it's irreversible, to be honest, but I wonder why you think we're doomed to live forever and ever and ever in patriarchal and misogynistic systems.

I don't think you're doomed - unless men can find a satisfactory way of reproducing the species (or an exclusively male version of it) without you. But you did submit to bondage, and so the hope of women in this world being free of patriarchy and misogyny is unrealistic, short or long-term.

Each and every step feminism takes towards supposed egalitarianism between the sexes only subliminates further men's subconscious negative thoughts and feelings toward women. You see this everywhere, in Christian fundamentalism, in historical revisionism, in all the little men-only cliques and cabals that rule in secret behind the scenes, and in the upper echelons of the professional disciplines.

I personally am quite idealistic about women, which allows me to feel very positive about them 99% of the time, but I believe I am (and others like me are) the exception to the rule. I could be wrong, but that's what I think...

Anyway, it is not a situation without some light. The best of men and women can love each other for reasons unrelated to sex, and so as long as this continues there is hope.