Why Multiverse?

[YoursTrue]

No, the bible expressly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and this made all seven plagues necessary. God used Pharaoh as a puppet. Pretty vindictive, no?

It depends how you look at it. If someone were like a Pharaoh and decided to make life harder for his slaves, and there was someone stronger than the leader, how would you feel about it? Jehovah gave pharaoh plenty of chances. And now that you mention it, I think pharaoh was a pretty strong character. So thanks for that.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, the bible expressly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and this made all seven plagues necessary. God used Pharaoh as a puppet. Pretty vindictive, no?

Did pharaoh pay attention to those seven plagues? Maybe he thought Moses and Aaron were kookie, so why should he listen?

 

[gnostic]

The living Earth happens to be in a sphere with N lifeless planets.
The probability of this event to happen was P=Q*V, where Q<1 is the probability of life to emerge on an Earth-like planet, V=(1-Q)^N is the probability that life has not emerged on N planets. Hence, by increasing the size of the sphere, the N grows, and so P turns to zero. Therefore, the idea of a Multiverse with all kinds of possibilities and physical constants does not help the idea of Abiogenesis.

If we take the totality of an infinite number of lifeless planets (which are suitable for life), then this does not help the idea that life appeared on Earth. The general rule of sterility does not allow this. The exception to the law of sterility is a real (God's) miracle.
NASA tries not to violate the sterility of space by sterilizing its probes before launch.

[0801.0246] Does God So Love the Multiverse? (arxiv.org)

DISCUSSION:

I have mind-vision, not eye-vision. What about my logic? I know textbooks, but I have a new results. Science is only then Science if it can be falsified by a genius.

Opinion: "But we'll have a better understanding of the actual likelihood of life arising here after we've got a satisfactory description of abiogenesis. Until then, it's all guesses."
Me:
"I have mind-vision. I have presented a logical theory, which is not debunked yet by you. Thus, according to Presumption of Innocence, the theory adequately describes reality."

Opinion: "I do not agree. The probability that I will win the lottery is almost nil, while the probability that someone wins the lottery is very high. Now, should that someone wonder why he, and not somebody else, won the lottery?"

I reply: "There is no lower limit for life emerging probability on Earth-like planet. It ranges from total zero to some Q. Therefore, my theory has the right to exist. The probability of life emerging in perfect conditions on a planet can be zero, to win lottery is not zero. But even if probability Q is not zero, then my theory proves, that the Multiverse idea has not helped the chances for life to emerge on Earth, prior it has emerged. You are talking about 100 % probability of life on Earth after life has emerged on Earth. That all information you gave here. The probability, that you won the lottery if you have won it, is 100%. But the probability, that you will win lottery is less than 100%. The same way the probability of life emerging on Earth, before it has happened is near zero.

Opinion: " The Q is not small:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/

Me:
"Mind is being used only for justification of Emotion" (Albert Einstein). If one wants God to be
non-active in life, he will find evidence for it.

Even the extremely improbable is still possible. But the probability of more than 5 sigma in Science is presumed impossible. That was used for the discovery of the Higgs boson.

Opinion: "You really started another thread on probability? Really? You must have a need for people to tell you your thoughts and concepts are nonsensical. You must revel in it."
Me:
You sound like those voices in my head.

Q: "But having multi-universes is no closer to answering the ultimate question than
having a single universe. Why and how?"

1. I have presented my argument in the thread, namely the rule of sterility of all cosmos does not allow life on Earth. If it is on Earth, then it is scientific miracle.

2. Yes, there are talks now of non-local laws of nature. Namely, quantum entanglement.
But I have unpublished yet argument, that even entanglement is just a local law.
Thus, all that matters are the things on Earth. There is no connection with the Multiverse, hence it can not alter the processes on Earth. The probability, that life will emerge on Earth if we were some billions of years ago on Earth, is small Q<1. But the probability, that this Earth will be surrounded by N lifeless planets, is P=Q*V=Q*(1-Q)^N<Q. Both these events have happened. One has happened with probability Q and the other with probability P. Both events must happen for Earth to get alive.
Thus, the real probability of life on Earth is dependent on the number of lifeless planets out there.
Hereby the Q is being calculated from the local laws of physics. The P is non-locality.
Well, there is non-locality in nature.

There are two options only:
1. God is existent,
2. god is not existent.
Because the basis of a person is god, then there are two gods. I have used logic.. Do you hate the Laws of Aristotle's logic?

First.

Multiverse is a theoretical concept of there being multiple universes, regardless if there are “life” on Earth or any other planets.

Multiverse have nothing to do with life on Earth, and nothing to do with Abiogenesis and Evolution of life on Earth. Multiverse is focused on there being more than one universe.

Hence, you don’t understand what Multiverse is.

You also don’t understand about Abiogenesis and Evolution too.



Second.

I think you are also confusing Multiverse with the multiple-dimension “alternate reality”, like there are multiple Earths, and that there could be multiple you and I in the other realities.

That’s a theoretical version of String Theory, called M-theory.

Again, you don’t know what you are talking about.

Both Multiverse and M-theory are “theoretical models”,

(A) they are not falsifiable hypotheses, because they are not testable, and

(B) they are certainly not tested scientific theories, so they are “science”.​

The differences between a scientific theory and those of hypothesis and theoretical model, is that scientific theory have passed ALL 3 essential requirements of being “science”:

1. Falsifiability
2. Scientific Method
3. Peer Review

Failing even the first hurdle - Falsifiability - means that it is not even possible to pass the next 2 requirements.

Both theoretical model and hypothesis are “proposed” solutions to the problems, and they similar in the ways that they are “proposing” to explain what the phenomena are.

The differences between these two, is that hypothesis is a model that is the very least - “falsifiable” - hence at the very least passing the 1st stage of being science by passing Falsifiability stage, but have not undergone the rigors of actual testing that are required in Scientific Method.

Theoretical model rely a lot more on deriving solution through solving and proving mathematical modeling being true, eg solving equations, and less on being empirically and verifiably testable and tested.

Of course, a scientific theory may also have mathematical equations too, but the difference is, in the case of scientific theory, these equations have been tested and verified to be true and valid, hence the mathematical model in scientific theory is “probable”.

 

[blü 2]

Because he uses messengers like Baháʼu'lláh?

Here's a being who has, we're told, an extremely important message for humankind.

Then how to account for that being's failure to communicate with any but a local few?

God [him]self on prime time TV and taking questions from the public and the live audience would be vastly more convincing. With the emphasis on vastly.

Meantime it's all a game. Why, it's exactly as if supernatural beings existed only as concepts or things imagined in individual brains!

 

[blü 2]

Did pharaoh pay attention to those seven plagues? Maybe he thought Moses and Aaron were kookie, so why should he listen?

God intervened to prevent Pharaoh from paying attention to the plagues ─ the story is explicit on this point.

So don't blame poor old Pharaoh ─ he was being ruthlessly manipulated, and Egypt was made to suffer the plagues and the killings of children, by God.

Good thing it's only a story.

 

[gnostic]

What about my logic? I know textbooks, but I have a new results. Science is only then Science if it can be falsified by a genius.

No, not “falsified by genius”, BUT falsified by testing, hence science required observations, evidence and data that are verifiable and testable.

These tests and evidence have to be empirical, to test if the theory is probable or improbable.

If you cannot test a proposed solution or cannot test the logic, then your solution and logic are unfalsifiable, therefore not testable.

Falsifiability have to do with idea or concept of being testable, which mean having the ability to test if it is true or false.

What most creationists don’t understand that if you can perform a experiment for your concept, even if test result debunk your concept, the concept is still “falsifiable”, because you have implemented an experiment that can test your concept.

It is only unfalsifiable, if you cannot implement any experiment at all, hence your concept is untestable, and therefore unfalsifiable.

So really, questfortruth, you don’t know what Falsifiability mean.

Why do you insist on talking about science when you have no ideas of what you are talking about?

And again, Abiogenesis on Earth have nothing to do with Multiverse, and Multiverse has nothing to do with life on Earth.

Your OP is just another messy incoherent mess of different ideas that have nothing to do with each other.

 

[gnostic]

Did pharaoh pay attention to those seven plagues? Maybe he thought Moses and Aaron were kookie, so why should he listen?

You don’t even understand your own Bible.

It clearly say God MADE the pharaoh rejected Moses’ warnings.

According to the Exodus, God made sure the pharaoh keep rejecting Moses’ warning, because god wanted to demonstrate his powers to the Israelites, until the last plague, by killing every first-born.

The plagues wasn’t just to convince the pharaoh, but to convince the Hebrews of his powers.

It make god sounds manipulative, sadistic and petty.

He does the same thing in the book of Job, manipulating everything so that he can win a wager. That’s really petty.

 

[YoursTrue]

Here's a being who has, we're told, an extremely important message for humankind.

Then how to account for that being's failure to communicate with any but a local few?

God [him]self on prime time TV and taking questions from the public and the live audience would be vastly more convincing. With the emphasis on vastly.

Meantime it's all a game. Why, it's exactly as if supernatural beings existed only as concepts or things imagined in individual brains!

I had an employer, a lawyer, who said the same thing. About tv. But maybe not everyone has a tv. And maybe God knows not everyone will be saved. So? What's your concern, you don't believe the Bible anyway. As the saying goes, no problem.

 

[YoursTrue]

You don’t even understand your own Bible.

It clearly say God MADE the pharaoh rejected Moses’ warnings.

According to the Exodus, God made sure the pharaoh keep rejecting Moses’ warning, because god wanted to demonstrate his powers to the Israelites, until the last plague, by killing every first-born.

The plagues wasn’t just to convince the pharaoh, but to convince the Hebrews of his powers.

It make god sounds manipulative, sadistic and petty.

He does the same thing in the book of Job, manipulating everything so that he can win a wager. That’s really petty.

No, it doesn't make my God sound petty. It makes Him sound great because He had a purpose to fulfill. There are plenty of pharaoh like examples of vicious tyrants including those claiming to be christian. Doesn't mean God made them that way. But if that's how you understand it literally, that's ok. Because clearly a person like Pharaoh didn't like what was in front of his eyes. Maybe God knew that about his personality.

 

[YoursTrue]

You don’t even understand your own Bible.

It clearly say God MADE the pharaoh rejected Moses’ warnings.

According to the Exodus, God made sure the pharaoh keep rejecting Moses’ warning, because god wanted to demonstrate his powers to the Israelites, until the last plague, by killing every first-born.

The plagues wasn’t just to convince the pharaoh, but to convince the Hebrews of his powers.

It make god sounds manipulative, sadistic and petty.

He does the same thing in the book of Job, manipulating everything so that he can win a wager. That’s really petty.

All things are written for mankind's benefit.

 

[blü 2]

And maybe God knows not everyone will be saved.

Which God are you speaking of?

What's your concern, you don't believe the Bible anyway. As the saying goes, no problem.

I notice that instead of answering my questions you keep shifting your ground.

But if that's how you express yourself, well, in a free country ...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok, Gentiles are wild branches grafted into the Jewish tree. Israel has been blinded in part but a time coming when their eyes opened and will have a big harvest of Jewish believers.

I find that the Jewish ' house of worship ' is abandoned by God - Matthew 23:38
There are Jewish believers today (aka Jewish Christians) but just like in other lands.
Remember: Romans 2:28-29 it is No longer by national fleshly Jewish birth or descent.
Jesus was Not wrong when he said the nations would hate his followers - Matthew 10:22
So, there would be No BIG Jewish harvest.
One person told me in Israel it is Not safe for an ambulance to have a red cross symbol on it.
The Jewish Soncino Translation contains the disparaging of Jesus in it.
Instead of a BIG Jewish harvest we will see men going from bad to worse - 2 Timothy 3:13
Few on the path to life - Matthew 7:13-14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........It clearly say God MADE the pharaoh rejected Moses’ warnings.
According to the Exodus, God made sure the pharaoh keep rejecting Moses’ warning, because god wanted to demonstrate his powers to the Israelites, until the last plague, by killing every first-born.
The plagues wasn’t just to convince the pharaoh, but to convince the Hebrews of his powers.
He does the same thing in the book of Job, manipulating everything so that he can win a wager. That’s really petty.

God gave Pharaoh ' enough rope to hang himself ', so to speak.
Plenty of opportunity for Pharaoh to be working out the wickedness in his heart.
Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart - Exodus 7:3,13-14, but if you continue reading you can see why at Exodus 8:15,32 that because Pharaoh 'he' hardened his own heart, so God allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart.
The plague circumstances which were brought about is what hardened Pharaoh's heart.- Exodus 9:21
Each one of the plagues humiliated one of the Egyptian false gods.- Exodus 12:12
The humiliating execution of the first born was because the first born was considered as a god.
Even today it seems men's 'gods' of pharmacy, entertainment, business, war, etc. are being humiliated.

Not only was Job challenged (Job 2:4-5) but by way of extension so are we.
'Touch our 'flesh'...( loose physical health and we would Not serve God )
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..........And maybe God knows not everyone will be saved.

Yes, God knows Not everyone will be 'saved' (delivered/rescued) because as Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and it does Not say all.
The figurative haughty ' goats' of Matthew chapter 25 are Not saved.
As Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15 mentions it's the sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth which will rid the Earth of the wicked.
The wicked are destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....The plagues wasn’t just to convince the pharaoh, but to convince the Hebrews of his powers......

I find each of the plagues humiliated one of the Egyptian gods.
Especially the last plague because the death of Pharaoh's first born was the death of a god.
So, it convinced both the Egyptians and Hebrews as to who was the true God.

 

[YoursTrue]

I find each of the plagues humiliated one of the Egyptian gods.
Especially the last plague because the death of Pharaoh's first born was the death of a god.
So, it convinced both the Egyptians and Hebrews as to who was the true God.

Yes, thank you. And when Pharaoh chased after the Israelites as his last ploy (he still didn't want to give in and give the Israelites the opportunity to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses...), he and his horsemen didn't make it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Which God are you speaking of?
I notice that instead of answering my questions you keep shifting your ground.

But if that's how you express yourself, well, in a free country ...

I am speaking of the God as expressed in the Bible. Of course, it does speak of many gods, but I am speaking of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (also Moses and others distinctly). Including Jesus. The God of Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

Which God are you speaking of?
I notice that instead of answering my questions you keep shifting your ground.

We were, by the way, speaking of the incident with Pharaoh, weren't we?

 

[gnostic]

There are plenty of pharaoh like examples of vicious tyrants including those claiming to be christian.

There are no doubts that human rulers can be vicious, and I am not condoning any criminal or immoral actions by any ruler.

But if god is controlling the pharaoh’s actions, as the exodus say god is doing, then the pharaoh have no free will, and really the fault lies with god.

Take Judas’ treachery for example.

1. If Judas betrayed Jesus from no known external entity or external force, then Judas is fully responsible for his own actions.
2. If the devil or Satan possess him to commit treachery, as the gospels narrated what occurred, then he has no free will, so Satan is really to blame.
3. But if it is God’s will that Jesus would be arrested, so that he can be crucified, died and be resurrected, then God had manipulated the devil into causing Judas to betray Jesus “as planned”, then ultimately God is responsible for everything that took place, then the devil and Judas were merely pawns playing God’s game.

The same thing about god manipulating Moses and the pharaoh as pawns in his game.

You need to remember that it all started with God offering covenant to the 3 patriarchs - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would occupy Canaan. But first he made Jacob migrated his clan into Egypt, where they will be freed and led by Moses to Canaan, which they will eventually invade and settle.

Were all these events happened because God made it that way, him being omnipotent and omniscient. If so, then there were really no free will.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, the bible expressly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and this made all seven plagues necessary. God used Pharaoh as a puppet. Pretty vindictive, no?

Taken in context, we can agree that if the Almighty (there IS one almighty God, isn't there? There can't be TWO or more "Almighty" gods, can there?) wanted, He could have knocked Pharaoh out immediately..So there obviously was a reason for the incident with Pharaoh and the children of Israel. The only thing God cannot do, according to the Bible, is lie. So -- taking the situation in context, the idea that God hardened Pharaoh's heart is that He made it so that He knew Pharaoh's personality and He knew what would or would not move him. As explained, Pharaoh was considered a god.
Meantime, you say you're a skeptic. Do you believe in any god beyond yourself? I'm not being funny or sarcastic here about that -- do you believe in a god of supenatural power beyond what you see, or are you not sure?