Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?

[firedragon]

I don't see it as nonsensical at all.

Muhammad was a fallible human and very powerful in his culture. Unsurprisingly, it wouldn't occur to him that the culture he dominated was only one small part of the human race. I understand that. As long as we all agree that the Quran is a piece of human literature, written and edited by fallible humans, this makes perfect sense.

But Muslims insist that isn't true. That the Quran is God's final Message, containing what humans need to know, perfect and eternal. Rational standards for that are stupendously higher. If God cared about humans understanding the Message of the Quran, then the rational way of doing so wouldn't be a batch of ancient Arabic poetry that the vast majority of humans cannot understand, even when translated into Chinese or English or Cherokee or Zulu.


If the Quran were from God, it wouldn't be such an exclusive message. The idea that God can't do any better at communicating than a 7th century Arabic warlord can is solid evidence to me that the Quran is entirely human, nothing to do with The Creator.
Tom

By the way, you are doing a straw man. There is nothing in the OP about the Quran being Gods word, or about Muhammed at all. So if you have some good analysis present it. This is just looking for anything to argue about. Its absolutely a logical fallacy, and absolutely useless.

 

[columbus]

It is nonsensical. Again as I said, "Yep, he should consider everyone in the world and write in a 7000 languages. Great idea."

Sorry if I mistook your worldview.

I thought your view was that Scripture was a revelation from Almighty God.

My apologies.
Tom

 

[firedragon]

Sorry if I mistook your worldview.

I thought your view was that Scripture was a revelation from Almighty God.

My apologies.
Tom

Brother. My personal view on God and scripture does not relate to this topic. This is purely about a book called the Qur'an and its language. Though it maybe difficult, we must do our best to separate the focal point in an argument and the straw man or the many many straw-men that are very attractive to attack.

I hope you understand.

 

[columbus]

This is purely about a book called the Qur'an and its language.

That's exactly what I was discussing.

Or, are you suggesting that including Islam in a discussion about the Quran and Muhammad is a strawman?

In previous posts, I've gotten the impression that you prefer to limit the discussion to your interpretation without actually saying what your interpretation is.
So tell me. Do you believe that the Quran is a human invention or a message from Almighty God? I'm finding it hard to tell what you mean.
Tom

 

[firedragon]

That's exactly what I was discussing.

Or, are you suggesting that including Islam in a discussion about the Quran and Muhammad is a strawman?

In previous posts, I've gotten the impression that you prefer to limit the discussion to your interpretation without actually saying what your interpretation is.
So tell me. Do you believe that the Quran is a human invention or a message from Almighty God? I'm finding it hard to tell what you mean.
Tom

Yep. this has nothing to do with Islam, or Muhammed, or God, or anyone else. Again, "This is purely about a book called the Qur'an and its language.".

You are again doing the straw man fallacy. Maybe its a habit and people tend to get into these straw man attacks pretty often but its useless to this topic so obviously I will not respond again. If you wish to discuss if the "Quran is a human invention or a message from Almighty God?" you can do that as a new topic or even in this thread if you like but just know that you are doing the irrelevant discourse of a person who does not understand a simple logical fallacy.

Your prerogative.

 

[columbus]

Yep. this has nothing to do with Islam, or Muhammed, or God, or anyone else. Again, "This is purely about a book called the Qur'an and its language.".

Got it
Featured Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?

Arabic and the Quran have nothing to do with God and Islam and Muhammad.

OK.
Tom

 

[firedragon]

Got it
Featured Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?

Arabic and the Quran have nothing to do with God and Islam and Muhammad.

OK.
Tom

Thanks for another logical fallacy. This only shows character mate, misrepresentations, and absolute intellectual dishonesty.

The topic is not "God and Islam and Muhammad", topic is "Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?" I said "the topic has nothing to do with Muhammed, Islam, god or anything but just a book called the Quran and its language" but you intentionally misrepresented it by quoting me as saying with a constructed sentence "Arabic and the Quran have nothing to do with God and Islam and Muhammad." so that is intentional misrepresentation which means its a lie.

Great going. Cheers.

 

[columbus]

topic is "Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?"

And when posters point out that Muslims insist that God delivered the Quran in 7th century Arabic, the only language in which humans can understand God, you choose against discussing their posts.
Perhaps you aren't a Muslim. I don't claim to know.

All I'm talking about is your implications concerning God and religion. And your posts and OPs.

If you'd rather not discuss your OPs, without limiting the discussion to your personal opinions, please say so. I won't. But do say so.

"I don't want to discuss Islam, I only want to discuss my own personal opinions".

Tom

 

[firedragon]

And when posters point out that Muslims insist that God delivered the Quran in 7th century Arabic, the only language in which humans can understand God, you choose against discussing their posts.
Perhaps you aren't a Muslim. I don't claim to know.

All I'm talking about is your implications concerning God and religion. And your posts and OPs.

If you'd rather not discuss your OPs, without limiting the discussion to your personal opinions, please say so. I won't. But do say so.

"I don't want to discuss Islam, I only want to discuss my own personal opinions".

Tom

Cheers.

 

[danieldemol]

Yeah. Ive heard that most nonsensical theory of "Muhammed didn't consider the non-arab speakers". Yep, he should consider everyone in the world and write in a 7000 languages. Great idea.

Actually that would be easy for God to accomplish.

 

[firedragon]

Actually that would be easy for God to accomplish.

Yeah. Not relevant.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that Saeh's argument for the Qur'an being the word of God is that the Qur'an is perfect and inimitable, ... and Arabic. It's an interesting argument, to be sure. But I have a problem with it.

If the best proof of God is the perfect, inimitable, Arabic, stenographically recorded, word of God in the Arabic Qur'an, either God doesn't know English or He has nothing to say to English-speakers. Moreover, ... I suppose God isn't really interested in having obedient believers who are deaf unless and until they master the perfect, inimitable, Arabic of the Qur'an, no?

I think that's a misfired arrow because of how you now assume that the Bible is in english (when it is only translated from it's original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek which are still essential to know, at least in compliment, to aid one's understanding of the actual socio-cultural semantics if it's terms and phrases).

The Abrahamic religions though are all world-religions though, all spread throughout the entire world. If we talk from any theological position of these issues, than inevitably a Jew, Christian or Muslim would say that God intended these religions to spread like wildfire when the time came.

As Surah 12:2 says "Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand."

As Surah 41:44 says "And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian! Say: It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place."

As Surah 43:3 says "Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand."


It's kind of obvious that God would reveal to a Prophet in the language of his people though, it makes no sense otherwise.
Imagine God revealing to Moses in 21st Century English? it would remain gibberish to them for over 3000+ years, until the 19th century when they would have started to gradually understand some of it's words

 

[Terry Sampson]

I think that's a misfired arrow because of how you now assume that the Bible is in english (when it is only translated from it's original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek which are still essential to know, at least in compliment, to aid one's understanding of the actual socio-cultural semantics if it's terms and phrases).

"Because of how you now assume that the Bible is in English"???

That's a bold assumption on your part, ... and unfounded, to say the least. Ergo, you think wrongly.
I may be 72 and not immune to making my own unfounded assumptions, but in this case, I'm not an idiot. Your problem is that you are woefully uninformed.

During my first 12 years, I was raised within the Southern Baptist Christian community of Oklahoma City, in the U.S. The Christian community of my earliest years was fixated on the King James Version of the Bible.
When I was 12, I was adopted by a Lutheran preacher, and well remember the multiple translations that my father had in his study, or around the house; his Biblia Hebraica Stuttgentsla and Novum Testamentum Graece; and his explanation of which language "the original revelation" of God's Word was given to humanity in, and why translations varied.
My native language, predominantly used in my home, was American Sign Language, which is NOT a written language. As my first parents' interpreter, I was introduced to the necessary practice of interpreting English into Sign Language and Sign Language into English by the time I was five years old.
I attended a Lutheran High School and was obliged to learn Latin and German. Had I continued on in a Lutheran College, I would have been required to learn Koine Greek.
After High School, I join the U.S. Navy and spent a year in Viet Nam and a year and a half in Greece. After I was discharged in Greece, I traveled eight months through Northern Greece, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India.

Bottom line: I know what "an original language" is and what "a translation" is, as well as the influence that socio-cultural factors can have in interpretation. In other words, I'm not the typical, English-only American that you seem to think I am, and I am far from being a "language snob", but I can usually spot one pretty quick. And you appear to have the makings of one. Get a grip, kid.

Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek which are still essential to know

"Essential to know" for what purpose?
Jews and the Muslims can each make their separate and differing claims of "proximity to God" based on their beliefs about God's linguistic preferences, but the day that a Christian does is the day I say: "You're clueless."

It's kind of obvious that God would reveal to a Prophet in the language of his people though, it makes no sense otherwise.

Right, ... which is why I never suggested otherwise. You clearly failed to grasp the point that I was making.

 

[Yazata]

If the Quran were from God, it wouldn't be such an exclusive message. The idea that God can't do any better at communicating than a 7th century Arabic warlord can is solid evidence to me that the Quran is entirely human, nothing to do with The Creator.

That may or may not be true, but it isn't really the point of this thread, is it?

If you were trying to understand the Buddha's message in the Pali canon, you would need to have some understanding of Pali. It has nothing to do with whether the message is from God. It's the result of the fact that words in one language often don't translate into different languages one-to-one. That's especially true of text in ancient languages that might be trying to express concepts unfamiliar in our day and age.

That's why Christian Biblical scholars learn ancient Hebrew and koine Greek.

It doesn't really have anything especially to do with religion. If you want to understand an ancient Greek philosopher at a reasonably advanced level, you would need to know ancient Greek. If you want to understand the classical Indian philosophical tradition, you need Sanskrit. To understand the Chinese tradition, you need Chinese. That's just how it is.

If you want to understand foreign texts, particularly ancient texts, at anything more than a beginning superficial level, knowledge of the language (and cultures) in which the texts were written can sometimes be absolutely necessary. Arabic is no different in that regard.

It doesn't necessarily imply anything about one's belief about revelation. It's more about communication.

 

[ecco]

The topic is not "God and Islam and Muhammad", topic is "Why must one know Arabic to know the Qur’an? Why is language that important?"

If the koran is just a book of poetry written by an off-topic illiterate Arab 1400 years ago, knowing the language in which it is written is not important since the book itself is not that important.

For example, here is one of many poems written in Macaronic Latin.

The taxe hath tened [ruined] vs alle,
Probat hoc mors tot validorum
The Kyng þerof had small
fuit in manibus cupidorum.
yt had ful hard hansell,
dans causam fine dolorum;
vengeaunce nedes most fall,
propter peccata malorum

Since the poem is not contemporarily important, there is no need to become knowledgeable in the language.



For someone interested in old poetry, it would be more important to learn the Chinese language. Then one could read the 50,000+ Tang Dynasty poems written around the same time as the Koran.

 

[firedragon]

If the koran is just a book of poetry written by an off-topic illiterate Arab 1400 years ago, knowing the language in which it is written is not important since the book itself is not that important.

For example, here is one of many poems written in Macaronic Latin.

The taxe hath tened [ruined] vs alle,
Probat hoc mors tot validorum
The Kyng þerof had small
fuit in manibus cupidorum.
yt had ful hard hansell,
dans causam fine dolorum;
vengeaunce nedes most fall,
propter peccata malorum

Since the poem is not contemporarily important, there is no need to become knowledgeable in the language.



For someone interested in old poetry, it would be more important to learn the Chinese language. Then one could read the 50,000+ Tang Dynasty poems written around the same time as the Koran.

Not relevant.

 

[firedragon]

If the koran is just a book of poetry written by an off-topic illiterate Arab 1400 years ago, knowing the language in which it is written is not important since the book itself is not that important.

For example, here is one of many poems written in Macaronic Latin.

The taxe hath tened [ruined] vs alle,
Probat hoc mors tot validorum
The Kyng þerof had small
fuit in manibus cupidorum.
yt had ful hard hansell,
dans causam fine dolorum;
vengeaunce nedes most fall,
propter peccata malorum

Since the poem is not contemporarily important, there is no need to become knowledgeable in the language.



For someone interested in old poetry, it would be more important to learn the Chinese language. Then one could read the 50,000+ Tang Dynasty poems written around the same time as the Koran.

Lol. If you are not interested, why do you participate mate?

 

[columbus]

Lol. If you are not interested, why do you participate mate?

Please explain why you started the thread if Islam and the Quran and such aren't important.

Honestly, I don't get it. What is the point to this thread?


I have my own ideas. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.
Tom

 

[firedragon]

Please explain why you started the thread if Islam and the Quran and such aren't important.

Honestly, I don't get it. What is the point to this thread?


I have my own ideas. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.
Tom

Read.

 

[columbus]

Read.

I have.
But you won't reply.

I post responses and you ignore them. I'm left with some pretty clear opinions about the OP.

Tom

~Cheers!~