Why no mention of a fiery Hell in the Old Testament?

[Rise]

Yes, Christian and other beliefs to be fair, have very diverse views on the concept of a hell. Is a person held accountable for decisions made or neglected in this life? Personally I think yes. Is it a literal eternal fire and brimstone hell as the Christian fundamentalist churches like I grew up in? I hope not. I agree that concepts concerning the afterlife and judgment in the Christian faith have for the biggest part evolved over the years, some times for better sometimes for worse.

If we're talking Christian to Christian, the issue gets much easier to pin down because the new testament is much more explicit about the nature of hell and we allow the words of Jesus and the apostles to interpret what we are seeing referenced in the old testament.

Revelation 21:8
Matthew 25:46
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Matthew 13:50
Mark 9:43
Jude 1:7
Matthew 25:41
Revelation 19:20
2 Peter 2:4
Revelation 20:13-14
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 23:33
Luke 12:5
Matthew 11:23
Luke 16:23
Acts 2:31

The debate over the nature of hell we are seeing in this thread is only less clear when we have to establish from the old testament alone what the nature of hell is, when there are fewer explicit verses about it.

I don't believe that your salvation as a Christian is going to hinge on whether or not you believe hell involves eternal torment or eventual annihilation. But I will say that what you believe must be shown to be consistent with what is revealed in scripture. To reject the idea that hell exists at all would be to reject the words of Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What the New Testament says about Hell is not inconsistent with accepted Jewish scripture.
Actually, it was considered to be perpetually smoldering with fire to consume the constant influx of garbage being thrown into it. Rabbi David Kimhi around the 1200's is the source of the historical fact that Gehenna was a burning garbage pit, and he also is the one who said it was perpetually smoldering.
If Jesus were only desiring to make a point about how something is thrown into a fire and consumed, he could have used any analogy of a fire to make his point - however, the fact that he chose Gehenna specifically suggests that there is analogy between it's seemingly never-ending fire and the nature of hell.

Was the dead Jesus in never-ending fire when the dead Jesus was temporarily in the Bible's hell ? ________ Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 3:15

Good observation about always smoldering Gehenna. An incinerator can also be always smoldering, but what we are talking about is the content of what is in Gehenna.
What was thrown into the garbage pit was: destroyed. The ashes could Not be put back together again. Gehenna was Never filled up because as with a burn barrel what was put in was destroyed. As the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7

The nature of biblical hell is that the Bible's hell is temporary - Revelation 20:13-14.
After everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' (KJV wording) out of biblical hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell.
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
Destroyed Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
So, Gehenna, Not biblical hell, stands for being destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If we're talking Christian to Christian, the issue gets much easier to pin down because the new testament is much more explicit about the nature of hell and we allow the words of Jesus and the apostles to interpret what we are seeing referenced in the old testament.
Revelation 21:8
Matthew 25:46
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Matthew 13:50
Mark 9:43
Jude 1:7
Matthew 25:41
Revelation 19:20
2 Peter 2:4
Revelation 20:13-14
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 23:33
Luke 12:5
Matthew 11:23
Luke 16:23
Acts 2:31
The debate over the nature of hell we are seeing in this thread is only less clear when we have to establish from the old testament alone what the nature of hell is, when there are fewer explicit verses about it.
I don't believe that your salvation as a Christian is going to hinge on whether or not you believe hell involves eternal torment or eventual annihilation. But I will say that what you believe must be shown to be consistent with what is revealed in scripture. To reject the idea that hell exists at all would be to reject the words of Jesus.

The nature of hell is that ' biblical hell ' is temporary, or the dead Jesus would still be in hell ( hades ) - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10
At Matthew 10:28 KJV translated the word Gehenna as hell. There is a difference between biblical hell and Gehenna. The soul can be destroyed - Acts of the Apostles 3:23
So, the Greek at Matthew 10:28 has the word: Gehenna. Gehenna was a garbage pit where things were destroyed ( ashes ). The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7

At John 11:11-14 Jesus likens death to sleep.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death:
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

 

[Sleeppy]

Then Christians hijacked it, and made up their own story and invented Hell.

Daniel 12:2
And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

-

This is rebirth. A continued existence on the Earth, until the end of each's respective age. Hell is something experienced here on Earth, until the end of the age.

 

[Hawkins]

I'm sorry but you need to provide sources for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, though the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenic period, apparently from neighboring Hellenistic religions.

You must be kidding me. Read Josephus' works.

An Extract Out of Josephus’ Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades

1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

The Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 1.3: Pharisees
They also believe that souls have an immortal rigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again;

 

[Akivah]

To reject the idea that hell exists at all would be to reject the words of Jesus.

That is obvious. In order for Christians to come up with a reason for people to believe in jesus, they had to invent a bogeyman, in this case Hell. Without a place to be saved from, there is no need for a savior.

 

[Tumah]

As someone raised in a very Fundamentalist Christian denomination that preached more about Hell fire than Heaven, and more wrath of God than love and compassion of God, I was always curious why such a terrible place was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

I never really could relate to that question. There are many things not mentioned in the Jewish Bible. Like the correct method of farming tomatoes. Knowing about the existence of Heaven and Hell doesn't affect what G-d wants from me, so it has no place there.

 

[Rise]

That is obvious. In order for Christians to come up with a reason for people to believe in jesus, they had to invent a bogeyman, in this case Hell. Without a place to be saved from, there is no need for a savior.

Theres two big problems with your statement.

The first, is that it's already been demonstrated from historical and apocryphal writings that the idea of hell, even eternal hell, was a pre-Christian concept in some sects of Judaism. So you can't say Christians invented it.

Second is; You would also have to be accusing the historical Rabbincal sages of trying to scare people because they do have a concept of hell recorded in the Talmud and later writings. Most might not think it lasts forever, but it's still torment in a specific place that is a consequence of the wrongdoing they committed in this life.

 

[CG Didymus]

Theres two big problems with your statement.

The first, is that it's already been demonstrated from historical and apocryphal writings that the idea of hell, even eternal hell, was a pre-Christian concept in some sects of Judaism. So you can't say Christians invented it.

Second is; You would also have to be accusing the historical Rabbincal sages of trying to scare people because they do have a concept of hell recorded in the Talmud and later writings. Most might not think it lasts forever, but it's still torment in a specific place that is a consequence of the wrongdoing they committed in this life.

So, on your first point, did the concept of hell arise from within "God's Word" or from other sources and then get incorporated into Judaism? And, did Christians build on the concept and develop it more, and then, go back into the Jewish Scriptures to find verses they could use to prove their point?

On your second point, the Bible has been trying to put the "fear" of a wrathful God into people from the beginning. He cursed people, drowned them, burned them, had his people kill other people, had his own people kill off some of their own and on and on. Actually, that sounds scarier... what if he still threw down lighting bolts whenever a person sinned? I'll tell you what, I'd be scared. But some vague concept that has a hundred different interpretations, and might be something made up anyway? That's not all that scary.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, on your first point, did the concept of hell arise from within "God's Word" or from other sources and then get incorporated into Judaism? And, did Christians build on the concept and develop it more, and then, go back into the Jewish Scriptures to find verses they could use to prove their point?
On your second point, the Bible has been trying to put the "fear" of a wrathful God into people from the beginning. He cursed people, drowned them, burned them, had his people kill other people, had his own people kill off some of their own and on and on. Actually, that sounds scarier... what if he still threw down lighting bolts whenever a person sinned? I'll tell you what, I'd be scared. But some vague concept that has a hundred different interpretations, and might be something made up anyway? That's not all that scary.

Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks then their wrong religious theories and philosophies became mixed or incorporated with Scripture.
Christendom ( Not 1st-century Christianity ) built or developed it more so that Christendom ( so-called Christian ) teaches what is false. - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30

 

[Rise]

So, on your first point, did the concept of hell arise from within "God's Word" or from other sources and then get incorporated into Judaism?

As a believer in Jesus, I believe that Jesus and the apostles give us a view of hell in the New Testament that arises from direct divine revelation. I also see nothing in the Old Testament that would conflict with what we find in the New Testament concerning this.

And, did Christians build on the concept and develop it more, and then, go back into the Jewish Scriptures to find verses they could use to prove their point?

Jesus speaks of hell when talking to the Rabbis as though it is something they are aware of: Matthew 23:33
John the Baptist may also be alluding to this in Matthew 3:7

I believe it's clear, based on apocryphal and rabbinical sources, that 1st century Jews had an understanding of an afterlife that involved a place where the wicked went that involved torment; and that this understanding did not rely on just what the old testament says.

I believe at some point there had to be some genuine prophetic revelation to the Jewish people about this prior to Messiah. Some of that genuine tradition may be preserved for us to some extent in apocryphal writings or Rabbincal tradition, but I would not look to those as authoritative standards on what the nature of the afterlife really is. I would let the OT and NT be the rule by which I judge the potential for truth found in extra-biblical writings, not the other way around.

On your second point, the Bible has been trying to put the "fear" of a wrathful God into people from the beginning. He cursed people, drowned them, burned them, had his people kill other people, had his own people kill off some of their own and on and on. Actually, that sounds scarier... what if he still threw down lighting bolts whenever a person sinned? I'll tell you what, I'd be scared. But some vague concept that has a hundred different interpretations, and might be something made up anyway? That's not all that scary.

Your characterization of the Bible and God is inaccurate.

God's first action after the fall of man is to cover their sin and make a promise of redemption through their offspring that will defeat the serpent. He doesn't make a promise of condemnation to man and demand obedience as a result.

It is God's mercy, love, and kindness that he does not strike down everyone the moment they sin - otherwise we would all not be here.

The old testament is full of God's love.

Just a few examples:
Job 10:12
Nehemiah 9:31-32
Psalm 57:10
Psalm 86:15
Jeremiah 9:23-24
Isaiah 54:8-10
Lamentations 3:32
Jonah 4:2
Micah 7:18-20
Hosea 14:4

The message of the Bible is all about God's promise to redeem mankind from their sin and condemnation to bring them into God's life and blessings; from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Jesus it is the same story. It's not a story of simply demanding obedience through fear.

In fact, in Romans 2:4 we see that God's goodness is meant to lead us to turn away from our evil deeds.

However, God's justice is real, and we would do well to fear the consequences of being judged by God:
Daniel 12:2
John 5:28-29
Revelation 20:12-13
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

It would also be wrong to think of God's justice as wrong or bad. God's justice is a good thing. Any society which did not punish those who committed evil acts against others would be seen as an evil society,

It would also be a wrong understanding of the Bible to not realize that it is God's expressed desire that we would experience His redemption: 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, Matthew 23:37
To that end; Jesus is God's promised provision for us, removing our sin by his sacrifice on our behalf; if we will choose to trust in Him and walk with Him.

 

[NewChapter]

As someone raised in a very Fundamentalist Christian denomination that preached more about Hell fire than Heaven, and more wrath of God than love and compassion of God, I was always curious why such a terrible place was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

It is, in "coded" language:

Psalm 21:9
King James Version (KJV)
(9)Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

 

[rosends]

It is, in "coded" language:

Psalm 21:9
King James Version (KJV)
(9)Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

This verse, "You shall place them as a fiery furnace at the time of Your anger; may the Lord destroy them with His wrath and may fire consume them." doesn't mention death. Doesn't hell require death?

 

[NewChapter]

This verse, "You shall place them as a fiery furnace at the time of Your anger; may the Lord destroy them with His wrath and may fire consume them." doesn't mention death. Doesn't hell require death?

Spiritual death: "(22)And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.” (Matt. 8:22, ESV)

 

[rosends]

Spiritual death: "(22)And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.” (Matt. 8:22, ESV)

so the verse had no meaning until after the gospels were written? Jews never knew how to understand it until then?

 

[NewChapter]

so the verse had no meaning until after the gospels were written? Jews never knew how to understand it until then?

The Jews knew about "the pit" of Sheol for it had been revealed to them:

Psalm 30:3
English Standard Version (ESV)
(3) O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.

 

[rosends]

The Jews knew about "the pit" of Sheol for it had been revealed to them:

Psalm 30:3
English Standard Version (ESV)
(3) O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol;
you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.

So Jews had a notion of she'ol (which is often translated as "grave"). People who die go into a grave. Makes sense. No fire there.

 

[NewChapter]

So Jews had a notion of she'ol (which is often translated as "grave"). People who die go into a grave. Makes sense. No fire there.

It's spiritual language (Matt. 8:22.) "The fire" (Psalm 21:9) indicates hell.

 

[rosends]

It's spiritual language (Matt. 8:22.) "The fire" (Psalm 21:9) indicates hell.

But there was not spiritual language until Matthew came along? Death and burial existed. Heavenly punishment for people who were alive existed. Are you saying that Jews got it wrong until Matthew came along to explain what it meant?

 

[NewChapter]

But there was not spiritual language until Matthew came along? Death and burial existed. Heavenly punishment for people who were alive existed. Are you saying that Jews got it wrong until Matthew came along to explain what it meant?

No I said none of that. That is all an interpretation that you are making.