It is impossible to try to convince some people that their point of view is wrong by trying to prove another point of view is right. But it may be possible to show some of these people that their point of view is wrong by simply showing how it is wrong. Are all non-believers atheists? The answer is no. Atheists believe no God exists. While non-believers may simply reject that a particular kind of God exists. Muslims reject the Christian God, while Christians reject the Islamic God. Each religion claims that people who reject the existence of their God are non-believers. So let us see who is right. Both of these religions claim the following: 1. God is all powerful (omnipotent) 2. God is all knowing (omniscient) 3. God is compassionate, merciful, loves and cares about each and every one of us 4. God will punish all non-believers with eternal hell fire 5. God is unchanging. Now, when we add up all four cases above, we find that the results can only be an imaginary God. Only three of the above statements can ever be attributed to a real God. Did I lose you? Then let me explain each step in detail. 1. God is omnipotent: Just like God can allow the existence of souls, God can prevent the existence of souls as well. God can choose what souls will exist. An omnipotent God can easily prevent the conception of a fetus that leads to the birth of a new soul. 2. God is omniscient: God knows the present, past and the future. We know God knows the future because God prophesied the future to us. If God knows the future, then God knows what each soul will choose to believe before that soul even comes into existence. Even though we have the freedom to choose what to believe, an omniscient God still must know what we will choose beforehand. If God did not know beforehand what we would choose to believe, then God could not prophecy the future accurately, as mankind would then shape the future based on what they choose to believe. For instance, if all of mankind chose to believe that technology is a sin (some actually do), could God accurately prophesy that oil burning automobiles would someday exist? To know that automobiles would exist, God would have to know beforehand that at least one soul would choose to disbelieve in the sin of technology. 3. God is compassionate, merciful, loves and cares about each and every one of us: God loves every soul when that soul first comes into existence. God gave us all the freedom to choose what to believe. God wants us all to choose to believe in God and live eternally in Gods presence. 4. God will punish all non-believers with eternal hell fire: God gave us all the freedom to choose, and if we choose not to believe in God and follow Gods laws, then God will punish us by sending us to hell. 5. God is unchanging: That simply implies that the first four statements must always be true (or false, depending on what you want to believe). We see that the fourth statement contradicts the first three. If God can prevent non-believers from existing, but allows those non-believers to come into existence while knowing that those non-believers must be punished with hell-fire, then God cannot be compassionate and merciful. In other words, if God knows that a particular soul will choose to be a non-believer, but still allows that soul to come into existence, then a compassionate and merciful God cannot punish such a soul with hell-fire. And it does not matter if we have the freedom to choose to believe or not believe, because God can still prevent the existence of those that God knows will choose to not believe, and thus destined to punishment by fire. We can take each one of the statements above and show that it can only be true if one of the other three is false. For instance, If statement four is true, then either God is powerless to prevent certain types of souls from existing, or God does not know beforehand what each soul will choose to believe, or God is not compassionate and merciful. So we see, both, the Christian doctrine and the Islamic doctrine are flawed and neither one of the Gods they describe can be real. Does that mean God does not exist. Not at all, but we do know that the Gods that these two religions are based on can only exist in someones imagination. Is it any wonder that no one has ever seen these Gods? Is it any wonder that when disaster strikes, there is no distinction amongst those who suffer based on what their belief is? The indiscriminate suffering we see in the world is an indication that at least one of the first three statements mentioned above must be false and thus proof that the Gods described by these statements are simply imaginary.
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Why not believe in God?
- Thread starter Harry003
- Start date
bradleykavin
Member
"their point of view is wrong by trying to prove another point of view"..after reading that sentence i didnt have to read anymore..point of view is subjective, so there really is no wrong or right..because in ones mind, their view can be ok, and in anothers mind, it can be wrong.
Ãanisty
Well-Known Member
Look, maybe it isn't fair to you that I didn't read past this part of your post, but it wasn't exactly fair to others that you claim there is a right or wrong point of view. There is simply no such thing as it goes against the entire concept of points of view in the first place. You'll never reach anyone by telling them they are wrong. You'll never reach some of us anyway.
BucephalusBB
ABACABB
I asume here that he means wrong compared to..
The rest of the post does not appear to have this particularly as subject.
And since this is merely your point of view ...Ðanisty said:
Karl R
Active Member
This statement is false. Muslim doctrine states that christians and muslims worship the exact same creator, and many christians would agree. Our beliefs regarding Jesus and Muhammad differ.Harry003 said:
It's my understanding that muslims see hell as a place people are sent to temporarily. It's a place of pennance and transformation where they become purified and can eventually enter paradise.Harry003 said:
Some christians are universalists. They believe that everyone goes to heaven, regardless. Their reasoning is very much along the same lines as yours.
That's slightly overstated. You've made a very good case that at least one of the first four statements must be incorrect. God may be real, but our understanding of god is certainly imperfect.Harry003 said:
What would be the affect on the righteous if unrighteous individuals didn't exist in the first place? Would humans still be moved to the same acts of justice and compassion without examples of cruelty and injustice (provided by Hitler and many others).Harry003 said:
According to muslims, belief alone doesn't get you into heaven. Many christians would agree (though there are a substantial number of christians who think belief is the only element to salvation). Would we become good enough people to become righteous if we weren't struggling against unrighteousness?
Christianity and Islam contain highly diverse points-of-view. Many of those points-of-view are held by people who have wrestled with the questions you addressed. If you wish to disprove christian and muslim beliefs in general, you'll have a lot more work ahead of you.Harry003 said:
On an unrelated note, in future posts, would you mind breaking your arguement up into multiple paragraphs? That would make it a lot easier for me to read.
Welcome to the forums. I look forward to debating with you in the future.
Mike182
Flaming Queer
Harry003 said:
from my point of view, the earth is a measurable physical thing - God is not. is the earth flat or round? it is round, because we can measure it - does god exist? we don't know, because we cannot measure God in any way.
to compare God to a physical thing is, in my oppinion, a big flaw in your argument.
I have to agree with Danisty. Your point of view is your own, and telling people they're wrong without having a clear understanding of their beliefs is pointless. Your op fails to consider the breadth of expressions of Christianity and Islam. Your best bet is to express your beliefs and argue for them, since at least you are fully aware of your own.
Ãsahættr
Active Member
I just want to say, Danisty, you're a genius. I've tried for ages to find a way of ressurecting Epicurus' riddle in a way that defeats the idea that evil is a consequence of free will, and I think that you've done it. Although once we're here what we do is a matter of free will, which sperm fertilises which egg is not a matter of free will, so God can control it, so He does in fact intentionally bring into the world people who He knows will go to Hell. Brilliant...
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Harry003 said:
Your argument is based upon what I believe is a misconception of the Christian message (and, possibly the Judaic message, though I can't speak to that viewpoint as eloquently.)
God created us, and God loves us. yes, God knows what will happen to us, and God knows the choices we make. The misconception is that God condemns those who do not believe in God. I (and others) believe that God has already saved every human being, and that, ultimately, all will come to be with God. It would be better for us if we were all in touch with the spiritual and with the divine, as we know it, but some are not. And some believe in a different personage or type of divinity than others. That's OK. God is greater than us, and we do not fully understand God. But, rest assured that God created each one of us for God's self, and God ultimately gets God's way.
Ãsahættr
Active Member
sojourner said:
That's not the Christian message though is it? That's just your own particular view. Are you saying that not a single Christian believes that some people are sent to Hell for all eternity?
Mike182
Flaming Queer
Æsahættr said:
are you saying environmental characteristics are determind by our genetics....... :areyoucra
i studied GCSE biology (GCSE is not very impressive really) but there is a difference between genetic characteristics and environmental characteristics. if there was no difference, there would be no differences in the characteristics of identical twins, yet the identical twins i know have very different personalities.
Ãsahættr
Active Member
Mike182 said:
I know. The argument is based on the fact that God is omniscient, so he knows exactly how someone's life will unfold. That means that he knows that if one particular conception takes place, then that individual may go to Heaven or Hell (if you believe that people go to Hell, as the other discussion here highlights) It isn't just that he knows the characteristics of the person, He knows everything that will happen to them. So He chooses whether or not a certain life will unfold with every conception that either does or does not happen, which means that if He sends people to Hell then He brings people into the world who He knows will go to Hell, whereas He could make sure that the only people who are conceived are those who will go to Heaven.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Æsahættr said:
I believe that is the Christian message, yes. I think many Christian people believe that God condemns some to hell, but I think they're mistaken. I don't think that's the message the Bible conveys, nor do I think it's messgae Jesus brought. it certainly fits better with the logic as presented in the OP.
