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Why not Totalitarianism?

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's nearly the end of 2017 and the United States of America is no where near to a point of resolving the constitutional crisis it has now got itself in to. This is on top of everything else that has been going on for 30 years of neo-liberalism. The climate change, the income inequality, financial crisis, etc, (do I even have to list it because we can all think of something?)

In a few decades the festering pile of unresolved problems is going to blow up in our faces and all hell will break lose. Its no longer a radical sentiment to paint the future in apocalyptic terms; reading the daily news has become a journey through the book of revelations. Despite differences of emphasis, this is now largely a point of agreement between the left and the right, but we still pay lip service to the idea its avoidable based on the hope that the system of government can change course. It is becoming extremely irrational to think it will.

I'd say Trump is at least a big symptom of this- but truthfully, this is something that has been decades in the making. Libertarians and Republicans have been pointing out how far the United States has drifted from its original ideals for a long time and do deserve credit for that, even if I may naturally side with Democrats over the tide of economic, social and environmental issues that aren't getting addressed. The reality is that even if the blame can be pinned on Trump personally, the earliest possible opportunity Trump will be impeached will be after the 6th November 2018- essentially a year away- because the Republicans have shown they'd rather protect one of their own than the country (e.g. Roy Moore). The Democratic Party has wasted an entire year pushing moral outrage, mass hysteria and shouting "Russia" as a substitute for dealing with any of the problems facing Americans. They can't reverse the clock back to 2016 and we now live in a new set of political realities that even impeaching Trump will not change. Whether you think Trump is the problem or the Republicans- you have to admit the Democrats are not going to turn this thing around until 2020. And it is extremely questionable of it they can make some of the radical changes necessary to get us out of this mess based on past performance.

If Trump is impeached, you end up with Pence. If Pence is removed as well, you get Paul Ryan. The earliest opportunity for a Democratic President is 2020. Impeaching Trump is almost empty symbolism for the damage that will be done. The Republicans will pursue their agenda, Trumps' platform, to 2020 and will do so regardless as to whether Trump is still President. Even if a Democrat is elected in 2020, the Republican Party will still be there to use religious fundamentalism, corporate power, anti-science and anti-intellectualism to destroy the United States and hurt its people. And the Democrats will let them because they will keep supporting Capitalism and will keep moving to the "centre-ground" as the Republicans drag them kicking and screaming further to the right. The Democratic Party is a neo-liberal party. It will stand by its corporate donors and will use sweet sounding rhetoric to make you swallow their crap. They will not reform the United States to a point where it can avoid a near total collapse under the weight of the problems it is manufacturing by the end of the century. the Democrats will continue to make short-sighted decisions based on defending corporate capitalism and everyone will be reduced to the position of spectators to the government of the most powerful country being treated as a reality TV show based on rating, not results.

This is not simply an American Problem. It's the World's problem. If the US government has finally lost touch with reality and is now barely able to wipe its own arse, the rest of the world will suffer. The economic, political and military reach of the US is too great for this to be isolated or contained. This cannot go on and it begs the question as to why- after decades of abuse- anyone should trust this system any longer as its unlikely to self-correct. Regardless as to whose side your on- We've had a year of chaos and this is not how governments should be run. As all alternatives are necessarily going to be totalitarian (or else risk the probability of becoming it);

Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

If I'm wrong, you're welcome give me some evidence that can make me want to support the landfill site now overflowing with toxic waste called Washington DC. I am not comfortable trusting this system with my future anymore. I live in the UK but I know this is global and I feel like crap for saying it because I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works. How can we keep peddling the view that the only reason to defend freedom is that everything else is worse than this? We need something more than fear of an alternative to make a system worth keeping.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
What an excellent idea!

*FH seizes power*

Now, about these beliefs of yours? Yeah, my regime does not approve, soo....

*secret police whisk Laika away to a prison camp and "re-educates" by removing fingernails with pliers*
 
Why not support Totalitarianism?

Because excessive centralisation leads to ineffective governance and a loss of legitimacy. Thus power can only be maintained through greater repression of the people.

I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works.

You can support localism.

Decentralise most power in societies to municipalities leaving only a few things at the state level (defence, etc). Politicians will be closer to the people and be more accountable. They will at least have to live in the places they are administering, so can't hide from the effects of their decisions to the same extent. Solving smaller scale problems is also much easier than trying to solve problems at the level of the state as complexity scales exponentially according to size.

Add in a bit of sortition to break the dominance of 'the elite' and prevent local dynasties emerging.

Beats the gulags anyway :D
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
*TLDR snip*
Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

Our system is amazing even when it is completely filled with career politicians and has become a cesspool of child abuse, conspiracy, and other intrigues it still manages to function somehow. If anything it's a testament to how good we've got it. Even the worst of them haven't managed to completely break it - the founding fathers were sharp as a tack, undoubtedly.

Trump's election was the curtain call for the totalitarianism of the far left, and a real political movement from grass roots folks across the country to stop identity politics, refugee insurgence, and illegal immigrants from taking over our country. The only reason the Democrats want all this is because they typically get that vote, and they will get that vote at the cost of our very existence... I see this as exceedingly selfish, and short-sighted as many others do. The message sent is loud and clear: a resounding "f--- no!" I am slightly amused at the Trump is Hilter attitude around here, but there certainly isn't any way to settle things for the adult-aged children among us without occasionally saying, "no".

This particular election recertified that pure Americana is in good health, and the parasites are being ejected from the host as we speak. Looking forward to at least seven more great years... ;)

Of course, you are free to disagree with me but I do concede most of my reason for posting is that many around here need to see some mental health professionals. One President isn't enough to get bent out of shape over, and if it does bother you that much get the assistance you need to make your life right.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It's nearly the end of 2017 and the United States of America is no where near to a point of resolving the constitutional crisis it has now got itself in to. This is on top of everything else that has been going on for 30 years of neo-liberalism. The climate change, the income inequality, financial crisis, etc, (do I even have to list it because we can all think of something?)

In a few decades the festering pile of unresolved problems is going to blow up in our faces and all hell will break lose. Its no longer a radical sentiment to paint the future in apocalyptic terms; reading the daily news has become a journey through the book of revelations. Despite differences of emphasis, this is now largely a point of agreement between the left and the right, but we still pay lip service to the idea its avoidable based on the hope that the system of government can change course. It is becoming extremely irrational to think it will.

I'd say Trump is at least a big symptom of this- but truthfully, this is something that has been decades in the making. Libertarians and Republicans have been pointing out how far the United States has drifted from its original ideals for a long time and do deserve credit for that, even if I may naturally side with Democrats over the tide of economic, social and environmental issues that aren't getting addressed. The reality is that even if the blame can be pinned on Trump personally, the earliest possible opportunity Trump will be impeached will be after the 6th November 2018- essentially a year away- because the Republicans have shown they'd rather protect one of their own than the country (e.g. Roy Moore). The Democratic Party has wasted an entire year pushing moral outrage, mass hysteria and shouting "Russia" as a substitute for dealing with any of the problems facing Americans. They can't reverse the clock back to 2016 and we now live in a new set of political realities that even impeaching Trump will not change. Whether you think Trump is the problem or the Republicans- you have to admit the Democrats are not going to turn this thing around until 2020. And it is extremely questionable of it they can make some of the radical changes necessary to get us out of this mess based on past performance.

If Trump is impeached, you end up with Pence. If Pence is removed as well, you get Paul Ryan. The earliest opportunity for a Democratic President is 2020. Impeaching Trump is almost empty symbolism for the damage that will be done. The Republicans will pursue their agenda, Trumps' platform, to 2020 and will do so regardless as to whether Trump is still President. Even if a Democrat is elected in 2020, the Republican Party will still be there to use religious fundamentalism, corporate power, anti-science and anti-intellectualism to destroy the United States and hurt its people. And the Democrats will let them because they will keep supporting Capitalism and will keep moving to the "centre-ground" as the Republicans drag them kicking and screaming further to the right. The Democratic Party is a neo-liberal party. It will stand by its corporate donors and will use sweet sounding rhetoric to make you swallow their crap. They will not reform the United States to a point where it can avoid a near total collapse under the weight of the problems it is manufacturing by the end of the century. the Democrats will continue to make short-sighted decisions based on defending corporate capitalism and everyone will be reduced to the position of spectators to the government of the most powerful country being treated as a reality TV show based on rating, not results.

This is not simply an American Problem. It's the World's problem. If the US government has finally lost touch with reality and is now barely able to wipe its own arse, the rest of the world will suffer. The economic, political and military reach of the US is too great for this to be isolated or contained. This cannot go on and it begs the question as to why- after decades of abuse- anyone should trust this system any longer as its unlikely to self-correct. Regardless as to whose side your on- We've had a year of chaos and this is not how governments should be run. As all alternatives are necessarily going to be totalitarian (or else risk the probability of becoming it);

Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

If I'm wrong, you're welcome give me some evidence that can make me want to support the landfill site now overflowing with toxic waste called Washington DC. I am not comfortable trusting this system with my future anymore. I live in the UK but I know this is global and I feel like crap for saying it because I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works. How can we keep peddling the view that the only reason to defend freedom is that everything else is worse than this? We need something more than fear of an alternative to make a system worth keeping.

Out of pragmatism, I don't support totalitarianism. I don't know of any country with such an system that I would rather live. Not in the present, nor in the past.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Because excessive centralisation leads to ineffective governance and a loss of legitimacy. Thus power can only be maintained through greater repression of the people.



You can support localism.

Decentralise most power in societies to municipalities leaving only a few things at the state level (defence, etc). Politicians will be closer to the people and be more accountable. They will at least have to live in the places they are administering, so can't hide from the effects of their decisions to the same extent. Solving smaller scale problems is also much easier than trying to solve problems at the level of the state as complexity scales exponentially according to size.

Add in a bit of sortition to break the dominance of 'the elite' and prevent local dynasties emerging.

Beats the gulags anyway :D

But how much closer is close enough ?
I live in a city with 6+ million people. I have never met with my mayor, nor any of the previous ones.
He is free to travel abroad, as he has often done, and he can also live far enough from any effects most of his decisions have since the city is big enough for that.

The only way I see giving more power to municipalities can work is by breaking up all municipalities to the point they only represent a rather small ammount of people, and that comes with its own set of problems. Is that what you want ?
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Out of pragmatism, I don't support totalitarianism. I don't know of any country with such an system that I would rather live. Not in the present, nor in the past.

Yes, please find a better system - I challenge anyone. :D USA - 241 years and counting... :D
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, please find a better system - I challenge anyone. :D USA - 241 years and counting... :D
Perhaps make it possible for new parties to more easily emerge and be viable? The two party system suppresses diversity. More competition is always better.

Make election day a national holiday and make all public transit free on that day so that everyone can vote.

People who had federal convictions. Can they vote now after they have done their time? If not this should be allowed.

Provide native Americans a privileged say by amplifying their voice. They are the original owners of this land, and should have a greater say in their own homeland.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Our system is amazing even when it is completely filled with career politicians and has become a cesspool of child abuse, conspiracy, and other intrigues it still manages to function somehow. If anything it's a testament to how good we've got it. Even the worst of them haven't managed to completely break it - the founding fathers were sharp as a tack, undoubtedly.

Trump's election was the curtain call for the totalitarianism of the far left, and a real political movement from grass roots folks across the country to stop identity politics, refugee insurgence, and illegal immigrants from taking over our country. The only reason the Democrats want all this is because they typically get that vote, and they will get that vote at the cost of our very existence... I see this as exceedingly selfish, and short-sighted as many others do. The message sent is loud and clear: a resounding "f--- no!" I am slightly amused at the Trump is Hilter attitude around here, but there certainly isn't any way to settle things for the adult-aged children among us without occasionally saying, "no".

This particular election recertified that pure Americana is in good health, and the parasites are being ejected from the host as we speak. Looking forward to at least seven more great years... ;)

Of course, you are free to disagree with me but I do concede most of my reason for posting is that many around here need to see some mental health professionals. One President isn't enough to get bent out of shape over, and if it does bother you that much get the assistance you need to make your life right.
You certainly need a mental health professional. Probably be an Asian immigrant though, as only those guys seem to care about you know, studying stuff.

In 15 th century China, after a tour of all Indian Ocean lands, the Chinese decided that they have nothing to learn from other folks and became insular. The rest is called modern history. Guess history repeats itself.
 
I live in a city with 6+ million people. I have never met with my mayor, nor any of the previous ones.
He is free to travel abroad, as he has often done, and he can also live far enough from any effects most of his decisions have since the city is big enough for that.

At least they have a connection to the area and a stake in its success.

Also if you use sortition to select a proportion of representatives, you get normal people involved in the decision making.

The only way I see giving more power to municipalities can work is by breaking up all municipalities to the point they only represent a rather small ammount of people, and that comes with its own set of problems. Is that what you want ?

Any system has its problems. How to administer mega cities would be up for debate.

At the moment though, most people are affected by decisions made by people who have never even been to their region and have no stake in its success or failure.

Having to find a one size fits all policy is problematic, as is trying to solve a small number of giant problems rather than numerous smaller problems.

Also you get a wider range of policies enacted, so better chance to test possibilities which can be copied in other places if successful.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's nearly the end of 2017 and the United States of America is no where near to a point of resolving the constitutional crisis it has now got itself in to. This is on top of everything else that has been going on for 30 years of neo-liberalism. The climate change, the income inequality, financial crisis, etc, (do I even have to list it because we can all think of something?)

In a few decades the festering pile of unresolved problems is going to blow up in our faces and all hell will break lose. Its no longer a radical sentiment to paint the future in apocalyptic terms; reading the daily news has become a journey through the book of revelations. Despite differences of emphasis, this is now largely a point of agreement between the left and the right, but we still pay lip service to the idea its avoidable based on the hope that the system of government can change course. It is becoming extremely irrational to think it will.

I'd say Trump is at least a big symptom of this- but truthfully, this is something that has been decades in the making. Libertarians and Republicans have been pointing out how far the United States has drifted from its original ideals for a long time and do deserve credit for that, even if I may naturally side with Democrats over the tide of economic, social and environmental issues that aren't getting addressed. The reality is that even if the blame can be pinned on Trump personally, the earliest possible opportunity Trump will be impeached will be after the 6th November 2018- essentially a year away- because the Republicans have shown they'd rather protect one of their own than the country (e.g. Roy Moore). The Democratic Party has wasted an entire year pushing moral outrage, mass hysteria and shouting "Russia" as a substitute for dealing with any of the problems facing Americans. They can't reverse the clock back to 2016 and we now live in a new set of political realities that even impeaching Trump will not change. Whether you think Trump is the problem or the Republicans- you have to admit the Democrats are not going to turn this thing around until 2020. And it is extremely questionable of it they can make some of the radical changes necessary to get us out of this mess based on past performance.

If Trump is impeached, you end up with Pence. If Pence is removed as well, you get Paul Ryan. The earliest opportunity for a Democratic President is 2020. Impeaching Trump is almost empty symbolism for the damage that will be done. The Republicans will pursue their agenda, Trumps' platform, to 2020 and will do so regardless as to whether Trump is still President. Even if a Democrat is elected in 2020, the Republican Party will still be there to use religious fundamentalism, corporate power, anti-science and anti-intellectualism to destroy the United States and hurt its people. And the Democrats will let them because they will keep supporting Capitalism and will keep moving to the "centre-ground" as the Republicans drag them kicking and screaming further to the right. The Democratic Party is a neo-liberal party. It will stand by its corporate donors and will use sweet sounding rhetoric to make you swallow their crap. They will not reform the United States to a point where it can avoid a near total collapse under the weight of the problems it is manufacturing by the end of the century. the Democrats will continue to make short-sighted decisions based on defending corporate capitalism and everyone will be reduced to the position of spectators to the government of the most powerful country being treated as a reality TV show based on rating, not results.

This is not simply an American Problem. It's the World's problem. If the US government has finally lost touch with reality and is now barely able to wipe its own arse, the rest of the world will suffer. The economic, political and military reach of the US is too great for this to be isolated or contained. This cannot go on and it begs the question as to why- after decades of abuse- anyone should trust this system any longer as its unlikely to self-correct. Regardless as to whose side your on- We've had a year of chaos and this is not how governments should be run. As all alternatives are necessarily going to be totalitarian (or else risk the probability of becoming it);

Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

If I'm wrong, you're welcome give me some evidence that can make me want to support the landfill site now overflowing with toxic waste called Washington DC. I am not comfortable trusting this system with my future anymore. I live in the UK but I know this is global and I feel like crap for saying it because I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works. How can we keep peddling the view that the only reason to defend freedom is that everything else is worse than this? We need something more than fear of an alternative to make a system worth keeping.
Yes. Clearly totalitarian governments have worked in the past?! Duh. Unless you have a technocrats beurocracy that calls the shots (Singapore, China since history began) that system is a disaster. Unless the totalitarian system somehow gets Bill Gates and Microsoft as it's helm (just an example,) it's not gonna work.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's nearly the end of 2017 and the United States of America is no where near to a point of resolving the constitutional crisis it has now got itself in to. This is on top of everything else that has been going on for 30 years of neo-liberalism. The climate change, the income inequality, financial crisis, etc, (do I even have to list it because we can all think of something?)

In a few decades the festering pile of unresolved problems is going to blow up in our faces and all hell will break lose. Its no longer a radical sentiment to paint the future in apocalyptic terms; reading the daily news has become a journey through the book of revelations. Despite differences of emphasis, this is now largely a point of agreement between the left and the right, but we still pay lip service to the idea its avoidable based on the hope that the system of government can change course. It is becoming extremely irrational to think it will.

I'd say Trump is at least a big symptom of this- but truthfully, this is something that has been decades in the making. Libertarians and Republicans have been pointing out how far the United States has drifted from its original ideals for a long time and do deserve credit for that, even if I may naturally side with Democrats over the tide of economic, social and environmental issues that aren't getting addressed. The reality is that even if the blame can be pinned on Trump personally, the earliest possible opportunity Trump will be impeached will be after the 6th November 2018- essentially a year away- because the Republicans have shown they'd rather protect one of their own than the country (e.g. Roy Moore). The Democratic Party has wasted an entire year pushing moral outrage, mass hysteria and shouting "Russia" as a substitute for dealing with any of the problems facing Americans. They can't reverse the clock back to 2016 and we now live in a new set of political realities that even impeaching Trump will not change. Whether you think Trump is the problem or the Republicans- you have to admit the Democrats are not going to turn this thing around until 2020. And it is extremely questionable of it they can make some of the radical changes necessary to get us out of this mess based on past performance.

If Trump is impeached, you end up with Pence. If Pence is removed as well, you get Paul Ryan. The earliest opportunity for a Democratic President is 2020. Impeaching Trump is almost empty symbolism for the damage that will be done. The Republicans will pursue their agenda, Trumps' platform, to 2020 and will do so regardless as to whether Trump is still President. Even if a Democrat is elected in 2020, the Republican Party will still be there to use religious fundamentalism, corporate power, anti-science and anti-intellectualism to destroy the United States and hurt its people. And the Democrats will let them because they will keep supporting Capitalism and will keep moving to the "centre-ground" as the Republicans drag them kicking and screaming further to the right. The Democratic Party is a neo-liberal party. It will stand by its corporate donors and will use sweet sounding rhetoric to make you swallow their crap. They will not reform the United States to a point where it can avoid a near total collapse under the weight of the problems it is manufacturing by the end of the century. the Democrats will continue to make short-sighted decisions based on defending corporate capitalism and everyone will be reduced to the position of spectators to the government of the most powerful country being treated as a reality TV show based on rating, not results.

This is not simply an American Problem. It's the World's problem. If the US government has finally lost touch with reality and is now barely able to wipe its own arse, the rest of the world will suffer. The economic, political and military reach of the US is too great for this to be isolated or contained. This cannot go on and it begs the question as to why- after decades of abuse- anyone should trust this system any longer as its unlikely to self-correct. Regardless as to whose side your on- We've had a year of chaos and this is not how governments should be run. As all alternatives are necessarily going to be totalitarian (or else risk the probability of becoming it);

Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

If I'm wrong, you're welcome give me some evidence that can make me want to support the landfill site now overflowing with toxic waste called Washington DC. I am not comfortable trusting this system with my future anymore. I live in the UK but I know this is global and I feel like crap for saying it because I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works. How can we keep peddling the view that the only reason to defend freedom is that everything else is worse than this? We need something more than fear of an alternative to make a system worth keeping.
I have no desire for a fat supreme leader that dosent defecate and thinks he's a God and demands complete worship at the risk of death.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps make it possible for new parties to more easily emerge and be viable? The two party system suppresses diversity. More competition is always better.

Make election day a national holiday and make all public transit free on that day so that everyone can vote.

People who had federal convictions. Can they vote now after they have done their time? If not this should be allowed.

Provide native Americans a privileged say by amplifying their voice. They are the original owners of this land, and should have a greater say in their own homeland.

It's not a two party system, it's like 100's of constituencies that vote between two parties as the times change. Most people are allowed to vote by their jobs, and even if they weren't they could do an absentee ballot or early voting in most locations. Free public transit? Your choice to own or not own a car is your problem, not mine. :D

Not letting criminal votes is simple - they're bad people, they forfeit that right. Do we want our decisions made by the population that makes good choices in life, or the bad ones? Doesn't take a genius level IQ to figure out how badly this works out. They can't own guns either... Being a felon comes with consequences - suggestion, don't be a felon.

Native Americans were settlers that crossed in from Asia 15,000 years ago... It's no more their land than it is mine, but if they want it back they can always pay for it now. Nothing is keeping them from buying up as much of it as they want, like anyone else. They are an infinitesimally small part of the US population, I might add, so their interests probably do not represent the needs of our country as a whole.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not a two party system, it's like 100's of constituencies that vote between two parties as the times change. Most people are allowed to vote by their jobs, and even if they weren't they could do an absentee ballot or early voting in most locations. Free public transit? Your choice to own or not own a car is your problem, not mine. :D

Not letting criminal votes is simple - they're bad people, they forfeit that right. Do we want our decisions made by the population that makes good choices in life, or the bad ones? Doesn't take a genius level IQ to figure out how badly this works out. They can't own guns either... Being a felon comes with consequences - suggestion, don't be a felon.

Native Americans were settlers that crossed in from Asia 15,000 years ago... It's no more their land than it is mine, but if they want it back they can always pay for it now. Nothing is keeping them from buying up as much of it as they want, like anyone else.
I have a vision of a democratic nation and you have a contrasting vision. I believe your vision will be harmful to human civilization in the long run, promoting a self-centered, judgemental and ruthless approach to other people. So I will have to oppose it. Fortunately not in your country, so you are free to drive it your way. I will follow Gandhi's way of maximally inclusive, community participation centered (rather than individualistic), open, friendly and peaceful democracy.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?.
The fundamental problem with totalitarian dictatorships is that the individuals who want to be dictators, and who will fight to gain such a position, do not care about the well-being of those they seek to rule. Such that their decisions will not serve the well-being of anyone but themselves. And this is not only damaging to the lives and spirit of all other individual human beings, its also damaging to the human species, as a whole.

Cooperation for collective benefit is a far more effective means of gaining the greatest benefit for the greatest number of individuals and for the species as a whole than division and competition will ever be.

Why humanity cannot recognize this fact is a puzzle. One that, if we do not solve, soon, may well lead not only to great individual suffering, but to our extinction as a species.
 
Last edited:

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I have a vision of a democratic nation and you have a contrasting vision. I believe your vision will be harmful to human civilization in the long run, promoting a self-centered, judgemental and ruthless approach to other people. So I will have to oppose it. Fortunately not in your country, so you are free to drive it your way. I will follow Gandhi's way of maximally inclusive, community participation centered (rather than individualistic), open, friendly and peaceful democracy.

My vision is completely inclusive, it's merit driven. I don't care what you are do something useful so I can buy into that instead of worthless idealism. Show me the value, and I'll buy it. Most of the governments that buy into socialist ideas create thought police and stymie innovation while focusing on identity crap instead of just getting out of the way and letting the people decide what's important for themselves. Pure democracy has been garbage since the fall of ancient Greece and their city-states, no need to repeat the corruption that inevitably follows when there are so many carcasses in our history books to pick through. Certainly, we should strive to treat others humanely but not equally - some are worth so much more than others.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's nearly the end of 2017 and the United States of America is no where near to a point of resolving the constitutional crisis it has now got itself in to. This is on top of everything else that has been going on for 30 years of neo-liberalism. The climate change, the income inequality, financial crisis, etc, (do I even have to list it because we can all think of something?)

In a few decades the festering pile of unresolved problems is going to blow up in our faces and all hell will break lose. Its no longer a radical sentiment to paint the future in apocalyptic terms; reading the daily news has become a journey through the book of revelations. Despite differences of emphasis, this is now largely a point of agreement between the left and the right, but we still pay lip service to the idea its avoidable based on the hope that the system of government can change course. It is becoming extremely irrational to think it will.

I'd say Trump is at least a big symptom of this- but truthfully, this is something that has been decades in the making. Libertarians and Republicans have been pointing out how far the United States has drifted from its original ideals for a long time and do deserve credit for that, even if I may naturally side with Democrats over the tide of economic, social and environmental issues that aren't getting addressed. The reality is that even if the blame can be pinned on Trump personally, the earliest possible opportunity Trump will be impeached will be after the 6th November 2018- essentially a year away- because the Republicans have shown they'd rather protect one of their own than the country (e.g. Roy Moore). The Democratic Party has wasted an entire year pushing moral outrage, mass hysteria and shouting "Russia" as a substitute for dealing with any of the problems facing Americans. They can't reverse the clock back to 2016 and we now live in a new set of political realities that even impeaching Trump will not change. Whether you think Trump is the problem or the Republicans- you have to admit the Democrats are not going to turn this thing around until 2020. And it is extremely questionable of it they can make some of the radical changes necessary to get us out of this mess based on past performance.

If Trump is impeached, you end up with Pence. If Pence is removed as well, you get Paul Ryan. The earliest opportunity for a Democratic President is 2020. Impeaching Trump is almost empty symbolism for the damage that will be done. The Republicans will pursue their agenda, Trumps' platform, to 2020 and will do so regardless as to whether Trump is still President. Even if a Democrat is elected in 2020, the Republican Party will still be there to use religious fundamentalism, corporate power, anti-science and anti-intellectualism to destroy the United States and hurt its people. And the Democrats will let them because they will keep supporting Capitalism and will keep moving to the "centre-ground" as the Republicans drag them kicking and screaming further to the right. The Democratic Party is a neo-liberal party. It will stand by its corporate donors and will use sweet sounding rhetoric to make you swallow their crap. They will not reform the United States to a point where it can avoid a near total collapse under the weight of the problems it is manufacturing by the end of the century. the Democrats will continue to make short-sighted decisions based on defending corporate capitalism and everyone will be reduced to the position of spectators to the government of the most powerful country being treated as a reality TV show based on rating, not results.

This is not simply an American Problem. It's the World's problem. If the US government has finally lost touch with reality and is now barely able to wipe its own arse, the rest of the world will suffer. The economic, political and military reach of the US is too great for this to be isolated or contained. This cannot go on and it begs the question as to why- after decades of abuse- anyone should trust this system any longer as its unlikely to self-correct. Regardless as to whose side your on- We've had a year of chaos and this is not how governments should be run. As all alternatives are necessarily going to be totalitarian (or else risk the probability of becoming it);

Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

If I'm wrong, you're welcome give me some evidence that can make me want to support the landfill site now overflowing with toxic waste called Washington DC. I am not comfortable trusting this system with my future anymore. I live in the UK but I know this is global and I feel like crap for saying it because I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works. How can we keep peddling the view that the only reason to defend freedom is that everything else is worse than this? We need something more than fear of an alternative to make a system worth keeping.

It can seem tempting, at least at the beginning. It seems many of our problems are related to a slow, bureaucratic behemoth that's designed in the way it is to protect against totalitarianism. In practice, what it turns into is a quasi-dictatorship of lawyers, bureaucrats, and judges, along with a confusing mish-mash of ideological pundits, politicians, and overly pompous pseudo-intellectuals who think they know what's best for everyone, whether they're in Academia, Hollywood, or Wall Street.

In situations like that (and it's happened before in history), it is tempting for some people to get behind a single ruler who can sweep away all these arrogant, puffed-up lunkheads and send them to some place where they can't bother anyone anymore. Someone who will stand up for the little guy and crush all these supercilious "middle managers" with no guts or backbone but somehow manage to game the system enough to gain a position of petty power that they can wield in their own little fiefdoms.

Those who don't know how to game the system might feel alienated, since they believe in following the rules and don't understand the ways and means of the bureaucratic bourgeois mafia. Only those who can afford the top lawyers can do that. The more people are left out and neglected by the system is just that much more support for a single strong ruler to crush them with an iron fist.

The so-called "little people" have nothing to lose by supporting a dictatorship, and even if their daily lives change little, there's a certain emotional satisfaction in seeing that justice is finally being done. Crush the capitalists, crush the bankers, crush the dishonest lawyers, the bureaucrats, judges, CEOs, and slicksters on Wall Street. Let justice reign.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes?

I mean... you've done nothing before that paragraph but opine on reasons that modern totalitarianism is bad, so, you yourself seem to have given plenty of reasons why. :p

Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

It's plausible, I'd say.

Not that it's much of a "free country" right now. But that could change...

I've been reading Muqaddimah by Ibn Khaldun recently. If his political theories are to be believed (and note, that there are flaws in his theories that have been disproven) the United States and many Western Countries are in decline and the latest stages of their lifespans, and will soon fall to be supplanted by virtuous nomadic peoples who will form a new society out of the death of the old.

So perhaps the emerging society after the death of the USA will be a free one. :p
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
In theory, all political & economic systems are perfect.
N Korea should be a workers' paradise.
But let's look at things empirically...
Where has totalitarianism worked out well?
Could we emulate these systems with equally great results?
 
It's nearly the end of 2017 and the United States of America is no where near to a point of resolving the constitutional crisis it has now got itself in to. This is on top of everything else that has been going on for 30 years of neo-liberalism. The climate change, the income inequality, financial crisis, etc, (do I even have to list it because we can all think of something?)

In a few decades the festering pile of unresolved problems is going to blow up in our faces and all hell will break lose. Its no longer a radical sentiment to paint the future in apocalyptic terms; reading the daily news has become a journey through the book of revelations. Despite differences of emphasis, this is now largely a point of agreement between the left and the right, but we still pay lip service to the idea its avoidable based on the hope that the system of government can change course. It is becoming extremely irrational to think it will.

I'd say Trump is at least a big symptom of this- but truthfully, this is something that has been decades in the making. Libertarians and Republicans have been pointing out how far the United States has drifted from its original ideals for a long time and do deserve credit for that, even if I may naturally side with Democrats over the tide of economic, social and environmental issues that aren't getting addressed. The reality is that even if the blame can be pinned on Trump personally, the earliest possible opportunity Trump will be impeached will be after the 6th November 2018- essentially a year away- because the Republicans have shown they'd rather protect one of their own than the country (e.g. Roy Moore). The Democratic Party has wasted an entire year pushing moral outrage, mass hysteria and shouting "Russia" as a substitute for dealing with any of the problems facing Americans. They can't reverse the clock back to 2016 and we now live in a new set of political realities that even impeaching Trump will not change. Whether you think Trump is the problem or the Republicans- you have to admit the Democrats are not going to turn this thing around until 2020. And it is extremely questionable of it they can make some of the radical changes necessary to get us out of this mess based on past performance.

If Trump is impeached, you end up with Pence. If Pence is removed as well, you get Paul Ryan. The earliest opportunity for a Democratic President is 2020. Impeaching Trump is almost empty symbolism for the damage that will be done. The Republicans will pursue their agenda, Trumps' platform, to 2020 and will do so regardless as to whether Trump is still President. Even if a Democrat is elected in 2020, the Republican Party will still be there to use religious fundamentalism, corporate power, anti-science and anti-intellectualism to destroy the United States and hurt its people. And the Democrats will let them because they will keep supporting Capitalism and will keep moving to the "centre-ground" as the Republicans drag them kicking and screaming further to the right. The Democratic Party is a neo-liberal party. It will stand by its corporate donors and will use sweet sounding rhetoric to make you swallow their crap. They will not reform the United States to a point where it can avoid a near total collapse under the weight of the problems it is manufacturing by the end of the century. the Democrats will continue to make short-sighted decisions based on defending corporate capitalism and everyone will be reduced to the position of spectators to the government of the most powerful country being treated as a reality TV show based on rating, not results.

This is not simply an American Problem. It's the World's problem. If the US government has finally lost touch with reality and is now barely able to wipe its own arse, the rest of the world will suffer. The economic, political and military reach of the US is too great for this to be isolated or contained. This cannot go on and it begs the question as to why- after decades of abuse- anyone should trust this system any longer as its unlikely to self-correct. Regardless as to whose side your on- We've had a year of chaos and this is not how governments should be run. As all alternatives are necessarily going to be totalitarian (or else risk the probability of becoming it);

Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

If I'm wrong, you're welcome give me some evidence that can make me want to support the landfill site now overflowing with toxic waste called Washington DC. I am not comfortable trusting this system with my future anymore. I live in the UK but I know this is global and I feel like crap for saying it because I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works. How can we keep peddling the view that the only reason to defend freedom is that everything else is worse than this? We need something more than fear of an alternative to make a system worth keeping.
Are you saying there is no anti science and anti intellectualism on the left?
 
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