Why not Totalitarianism?

[Laika]

In a way, but as with all things as you go through life you start to see things differently. Decade by decade you see that the more things change the more they stay the same.

My experience is somewhere along these lines;

1. Things will get worse; there is little evidence (or at least publicity) that there will be anything other than an apocalyptic nightmare by the end of my lifetime (if I get to 80 it will be 2070).
2. Personal Success has absolutely nothing to do with ability; you have an entire culture that celebrates the trivial, the moronic and is institutionally hypocritical
3. The people with power to make a difference are incompetent and corrupt to the point where it is genuinely dangerous and actively invite catastrophes by the magnitude of their incompetence.
4. If you try to be Good person who play by the rules are always going to get screwed. Suffering this abuse quietly will bring no reward and no change in circumstance because you can't trust anyone in authority to do what is right.
5. You will be lied to and manipulated so that you never question power structures that are directly contrary to your interests; You will be taken advantage of and you have the right to "talk" about it, but actually working with the institutions is the most effective way of ensuring your efforts are futile.
6. There are no self-correcting mechanisms in this system which will improve this situation because they are all run by the same "class" of professional morons. The ineptitude of that class doesn't change with elections.

Your more than welcome to read selfish motivations in to that, but essentially for all the official propaganda about the benefits of living in a "free" society, I'm walking around with a level of anger is getting to a stage where it is corrosive and poisonous. I'm not angry at you or anyone specifically, but I just have to vent because I can't even believe that we really are in a mess of this magnitude because I have believed and wanted to believe that "good" people with integrity could get power and could a difference. That is not happening and its not likely to happen for the foreseeable future and as it is a personal threat to my future it is very difficult to ignore it and believe that things will work out for the best.

Even as a self-important prick that I am, I just have to say it because I care and don't like the idea that good people will get hurt for no reason other than society has conspired to make them perpetual victims. The near continuous sense of disbelief that comes from reading the news as every standard of public life and expectations about the future is forced lower and lower is horrific. gratuitous and painful to watch. Your left feeling "you deserve better" somehow and you want to find ways to achieve it, but nothing in this system will give it to you so it is really tempting to look outside of it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

@Laika, your posts in this thread just sound like angry, despairing rants by someone who has given up on everything. It sounds like you're projecting whatever anger, depression and despair you feel personally about your life onto society as a whole and so are only viewing the world through a dark and gloomy lens where everything's gone to ****. I see this a lot with young white men who then turn to (left or right) political extremism or even just become nihilistic drug-addled punk rockers. It happens so much that It's become a cliche. (Weirdly, you don't see it much with other demographics as I guess it's a luxury all its own.) Life is ultimately what you make of it and society isn't on the verge of collapse and hopeless, as you've convinced yourself. The truth is somewhere in the middle. You're not living in the third world, a warzone or a refugee camp. You're not dodging bombs and bullets. If your sky is falling, that's internal. I suggest you seek professional help to overcome your sense of cynicism and despair because it's quite obvious that your forays into political extremism are not making you happy. Do something in the real world that makes you happy and gives you a purpose in life, be it a hobby, socializing, a job or whatever.

 

[Laika]

@Laika, your posts in this thread just sound like angry, despairing rants by someone who has given up on everything. It sounds like you're projecting whatever anger, depression and despair you feel personally about your life onto society as a whole and so are only viewing the world through a dark and gloomy lens where everything's gone to ****. I see this a lot with young white men who then turn to (left or right) political extremism or even just become nihilistic drug-addled punk rockers. It happens so much that It's become a cliche. (Weirdly, you don't see it much with other demographics as I guess it's a luxury all its own.) Life is ultimately what you make of it and society isn't on the verge of collapse and hopeless, as you've convinced yourself. The truth is somewhere in the middle. You're not living in the third world, a warzone or a refugee camp. You're not dodging bombs and bullets. If your sky is falling, that's internal. I suggest you seek professional help to overcome your sense of cynicism and despair because it's quite obvious that your forays into political extremism are not making you happy. Do something in the real world that makes you happy and gives you a purpose in life, be it a hobby, socializing, a job or whatever.

Honestly, I don't have any alternatives but to try and take your advice but I badly needed to let off steam. There isn't exactly anything of any immediate consequence I can do politically and, yeah, I resent it. My personal vulnerabilities do make me susceptible to extremism, along with hefty a dose of ego along with a sense of entitlement as a white 20-something guy. It is a lot harder to give up that sense of entitlement because it just hurts your pride in the end.

If I was sitting opposite a therapist, they'd tell me I'm angry because of the collision between what I expected my life (and the wider world) should be and the fact my experiences don't match up to that. It distorts my sense of the "bigger picture" of what is going on in the world and where its headed. So yeah, I am a walking cliche.The desire to be right and to feel vindicated in some way is probably a way of hiding from that vulnerability. A narcissistic pride as a substitute for genuine, healthy self-worth perhaps. None of the answers I'm realistically going to get are ones I want to hear, but I have not been in a position to have adult conversations with anyone other than on RF. So I just needed to vent.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Honestly, I don't have any alternatives but to try and take your advice but I badly needed to let off steam. There isn't exactly anything of any immediate consequence I can do politically and, yeah, I resent it. My personal vulnerabilities do make me susceptible to extremism, along with hefty a dose of ego along with a sense of entitlement as a white 20-something guy. It is a lot harder to give up that sense of entitlement because it just hurts your pride in the end.

If I was sitting opposite a therapist, they'd tell me I'm angry because of the collision between what I expected my life (and the wider world) should be and the fact my experiences don't match up to that. It distorts my sense of the "bigger picture" of what is going on in the world and where its headed. So yeah, I am a walking cliche.The desire to be right and to feel vindicated in some way is probably a way of hiding from that vulnerability. A narcissistic pride as a substitute for genuine, healthy self-worth perhaps. None of the answers I'm realistically going to get are ones I want to hear, but I have not been in a position to have adult conversations with anyone other than on RF. So I just needed to vent.

I understand. We all need to blow off steam at times.

It's up to you to make your life what you want it to be. Society is really the interconnected web of individuals we're all a part of. Our lives and connections to each other do make a difference but we actually have to get there and interact with each other. We all have at least some power to create change in our communities, to contribute. I just think you need to find ways to interact positively in your community. I know you suffer from depression and you sound a bit socially isolated, maybe not having friends offline. That alone can built up anger and resentment. Being cut off from others and the world around us can cause us to ruminate over "big picture" and existential things, usually in a negative way especially if we're prone to depression. I tend to self-isolate and suffer from depression. I brood over things and fall into nihilism, personally. But this tends to lessen greatly by just getting out in the world and being around people. Think of things you can do in your area. Even just going for a nice walk, checking out community centers, look up groups that do activities you're interested in, try to make friends, etc. You obviously care about people, so why not look into volunteer work, if you haven't. Make sure to get enough sleep and sunlight, too. Staying up all night and sleeping during the day is awful for your health. I think you'll find your anger and despair may lessen. We are social creatures, after all. We tend to fall apart without others. Relationships give us meaning and purpose.

 

[Laika]

I understand. We all need to blow off steam at times.

It's up to you to make your life what you want it to be. Society is really the interconnected web of individuals we're all a part of. Our lives and connections to each other do make a difference but we actually have to get there and interact with each other. We all have at least some power to create change in our communities, to contribute. I just think you need to find ways to interact positively in your community. I know you suffer from depression and you sound a bit socially isolated, maybe not having friends offline. That alone can built up anger and resentment. Being cut off from others and the world around us can cause us to ruminate over "big picture" and existential things, usually in a negative way especially if we're prone to depression. I tend to self-isolate and suffer from depression. I brood over things and fall into nihilism, personally. But this tends to lessen greatly by just getting out in the world and being around people. Think of things you can do in your area. Even just going for a nice walk, checking out community centers, look up groups that do activities you're interested in, try to make friends, etc. You obviously care about people, so why not look into volunteer work, if you haven't. Make sure to get enough sleep and sunlight, too. Staying up all night and sleeping during the day is awful for your health. I think you'll find your anger and despair may lessen. We are social creatures, after all. We tend to fall apart without others. Relationships give us meaning and purpose.

Yeah. Things sucks and I have to put a brave face on it because no-one wants to hear that I am struggling. Any improvement takes a lot of effort and there is never any kind of guaranteed outcome at the end of it. Its just gambling and I hate taking risks because I feel like I've failed or screwed up when things don't go my way even though they are largely outside of my control. Discussing all the stuff going on in my head is out of the question because people don't talk about how they feel, let alone depression.

Mainly its the fact I live in a rural area and doing anything means travelling at least half an hour on the bus, or two hours if I need to get something more useful like clothes. But then when you get there, there is nothing to do because you don't have the money. I might go out and buy a meal or lunch for £10 but that's really it. I tried making an adventure out it by taking the bus and train to see how far I could get in a day but that gets expensive and was when I decided to get some voluntary work. The only friends I have are online (RF basically) and despite bumping in to people I know for the past on the street, swapping details and asking to meet up, nothing comes from it. I'd have to go out of my way to meet people and there is no guarantee they might actually bother to stay in touch or that they'd want to be around me if they knew I had problems. There is one guy who I stay in touch with on the phone who I know from Uni, but its awkward to talk to him sometimes because I don't want to feel like a burden by saying life isn't what I want it to be. I live with my parents, but they are the worst people to open up to because they will turn the conversation round in such a way they will blame me for having a problem. We "get along" but large sections of my personal life are taboo and they only ever talk about subjects they are comfortable with.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but the only reason I'm not seeing a therapist is because they would have to report any extremist stuff to the authorities and so opening up and letting myself be vulnerable in that situation only for it to be violated is really unattractive even if it would be the right thing to do. I'm pissed and angry at how my life has gone and where the world is going, but I haven't done anything wrong. Really I want some kind of control so I can actually get something done and sort things out and I'm on my own long enough that I know that's what its about.

So yeah. not great. Not really any sense of achievement to show for being here and I would have to pull off a miracle to be successful to get people to notice. Not even success necessarily makes you happy and the extra pressure can make depression/anxiety worse. Struggling like this in almost complete silence is unrewarding and watching stupid people waste the power and opportunities they have by ruining it for everyone else on the news is really a final insult. On the day to day things, I keep my head above water, but trying to imagine anything longer than a few weeks or months in to the future is pretty much impossible because I have no control over it. And it doesn't look like it will get better without some Herculean effort to life changes. no-one notices and I feel taken for granted. being a 20 something white male with problems doesn't interest people even when they are close to you. you're just supposed to take it. RF is the one space where I can at least say it though as I can't pretend to be normal here. lol.

I could keep going for a while, but I think it may be polite to let you have a turn to open up if you need to.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why not support Totalitarianism?

Mainly because it is anathema to the political maturity that we all need if some hope of improving freedoms and quality of life is to be had.

Totalitarians have appeal because people are ruled by their fears and attachment to promises of quick solutions to difficult challenges. That does not mean they work.

 

[PureX]

The State is the population, ...

Not in a totalitarian, dictatorial regime. By definition, in such a regime, the people have no control over their own circumstances.

... so when you say "for its own benefit," it's for the benefit of the population as a whole. That's the entire reason for the State to exist in the first place. Otherwise, why have a government at all?

"Government" is just what we call social control. There is no instance in which there is no social control. When one form of government breaks down, the next form immediately arises. If the population cannot band together and enforce rules for the common good, the "bullyboys" among them will arise and use violence to enforce their will on everyone else. We can be ruled by common consensus, or we can be ruled by individual greed and violence. Either way we will be ruled. There is no anarchic utopia among humans.

The choice remains this: mutual cooperation for the benefit of all, which requires the forfeiture of some degree of individual freedom and desire from everyone, and persistent oversight to make sure everyone is being served. Or the endless violence and competition of Darwinian social mechanics, in which the most powerful and ruthless individuals rule over everyone else until they are replaced by someone more powerful and ruthless. Human history shows us struggling to establish the former, while continually falling back into the latter.

 

[idav]

It's nearly the end of 2017 and the United States of America is no where near to a point of resolving the constitutional crisis it has now got itself in to. This is on top of everything else that has been going on for 30 years of neo-liberalism. The climate change, the income inequality, financial crisis, etc, (do I even have to list it because we can all think of something?)

In a few decades the festering pile of unresolved problems is going to blow up in our faces and all hell will break lose. Its no longer a radical sentiment to paint the future in apocalyptic terms; reading the daily news has become a journey through the book of revelations. Despite differences of emphasis, this is now largely a point of agreement between the left and the right, but we still pay lip service to the idea its avoidable based on the hope that the system of government can change course. It is becoming extremely irrational to think it will.

I'd say Trump is at least a big symptom of this- but truthfully, this is something that has been decades in the making. Libertarians and Republicans have been pointing out how far the United States has drifted from its original ideals for a long time and do deserve credit for that, even if I may naturally side with Democrats over the tide of economic, social and environmental issues that aren't getting addressed. The reality is that even if the blame can be pinned on Trump personally, the earliest possible opportunity Trump will be impeached will be after the 6th November 2018- essentially a year away- because the Republicans have shown they'd rather protect one of their own than the country (e.g. Roy Moore). The Democratic Party has wasted an entire year pushing moral outrage, mass hysteria and shouting "Russia" as a substitute for dealing with any of the problems facing Americans. They can't reverse the clock back to 2016 and we now live in a new set of political realities that even impeaching Trump will not change. Whether you think Trump is the problem or the Republicans- you have to admit the Democrats are not going to turn this thing around until 2020. And it is extremely questionable of it they can make some of the radical changes necessary to get us out of this mess based on past performance.

If Trump is impeached, you end up with Pence. If Pence is removed as well, you get Paul Ryan. The earliest opportunity for a Democratic President is 2020. Impeaching Trump is almost empty symbolism for the damage that will be done. The Republicans will pursue their agenda, Trumps' platform, to 2020 and will do so regardless as to whether Trump is still President. Even if a Democrat is elected in 2020, the Republican Party will still be there to use religious fundamentalism, corporate power, anti-science and anti-intellectualism to destroy the United States and hurt its people. And the Democrats will let them because they will keep supporting Capitalism and will keep moving to the "centre-ground" as the Republicans drag them kicking and screaming further to the right. The Democratic Party is a neo-liberal party. It will stand by its corporate donors and will use sweet sounding rhetoric to make you swallow their crap. They will not reform the United States to a point where it can avoid a near total collapse under the weight of the problems it is manufacturing by the end of the century. the Democrats will continue to make short-sighted decisions based on defending corporate capitalism and everyone will be reduced to the position of spectators to the government of the most powerful country being treated as a reality TV show based on rating, not results.

This is not simply an American Problem. It's the World's problem. If the US government has finally lost touch with reality and is now barely able to wipe its own arse, the rest of the world will suffer. The economic, political and military reach of the US is too great for this to be isolated or contained. This cannot go on and it begs the question as to why- after decades of abuse- anyone should trust this system any longer as its unlikely to self-correct. Regardless as to whose side your on- We've had a year of chaos and this is not how governments should be run. As all alternatives are necessarily going to be totalitarian (or else risk the probability of becoming it);

Why not support Totalitarianism? What exactly do we have to lose given that the United States is all but a totalitarian system in name or else is heading in that direction within our lifetimes? Is it really plausible to believe that the USA will be a free country in 50 to 100 years?

If I'm wrong, you're welcome give me some evidence that can make me want to support the landfill site now overflowing with toxic waste called Washington DC. I am not comfortable trusting this system with my future anymore. I live in the UK but I know this is global and I feel like crap for saying it because I still want to believe "free" societies are worth fighting for and I know the risks involved. but seriously- I want an alternative and I have almost stopped caring what it is as long as it works. How can we keep peddling the view that the only reason to defend freedom is that everything else is worse than this? We need something more than fear of an alternative to make a system worth keeping.

I'm pretty much hopeful that our knowledge and technology will surpass or help us overcome our immaturities. Technology would allow us to feed the hungry for example and we have done pretty much that with mass production of food. Its technology which has allowed us overcome some of the eventual downfalls that come from lack of resources for an ever growing population. Sure things get tense often but it's fear that can be overcome. Fear is an emotion telling us we know that a dystopian future is inevitable, but the future is not written.

 

[dfnj]

I'm pretty much hopeful that our knowledge and technology will surpass or help us overcome our immaturities. Technology would allow us to feed the hungry for example and we have done pretty much that with mass production of food. Its technology which has allowed us overcome some of the eventual downfalls that come from lack of resources for an ever growing population. Sure things get tense often but it's fear that can be overcome. Fear is an emotion telling us we know that a dystopian future is inevitable, but the future is not written.

I agree with your way of thinking. We do have profound political and social problems. Although it is extremely cyclical and painful I think we are slowly making progress on spiritual levels. Extremism is only tolerated for so long. And there are counter forces to oppression. People are desperate to have meaningful lives is driving new technological solutions to address inequalities. I am hopeful and patient. However, I think at any moment in history you can cherry pick evidence to support a dystopian conclusion.

Here's cut-n-paste from another post on made on two technologies I find important to addressing society's inequalities. A little ways off but not too far.

Here's a really cool Ted talk on how to engineer a sustainable moon base living system:

Thorium, an alternative nuclear fuel

There are tons of articles of how "vertical farming" will solve any food crisis. Just google, "future of vertical farming" for 20 or so really good articles on the subject.

The problem with engineering sustainable cities is the moment you spend a single dollar on top-down urban design people will start clamoring it's a globalist conspiracy to enslave the population. There are trade-offs in every design decision. If you have no city planning you get tons of pollution and environmental damage. I don't know what the solution is that will satisfy the conspiracy theorist's fears of slavery.

And besides, government is not the only mechanism that enslaves us. Laissez faire capitalism with the international corporations keeping wages depressed while getting lobbyists to force politicians to pass laws creating cartels and monopolies so the CEOs can gouge consumers with highest possible pricing is doing the trick! It really doesn't matter what you pay in taxes to the government. All that really matters is the purchasing power of your take home pay. Certainly totalitarianism from oligarchy is not very much fun!

I just think in order to have a sustainable population level on Earth will require very sophisticated computer modeling and design. I do not agree it is not achievable based on principle. I think there is no political will to put an end to the chaos and environmental destruction. Quality of life is a subjective experience. The people in power don't care about poverty. The people in power are only concerned about the preservation of their own power and privilege.

I don't think totalitarianism either right wing or left wing kind will be very effective in solving society's problems. For the people with power and privilege they do not think any change is needed. Totalitarianism is only a good thing if you are one of the "lucky" ones who has power in the system.

 

[Stevicus]

Not in a totalitarian, dictatorial regime. By definition, in such a regime, the people have no control over their own circumstances.

The people always have control, whether they're conscious of it or not.

"Government" is just what we call social control. There is no instance in which there is no social control. When one form of government breaks down, the next form immediately arises. If the population cannot band together and enforce rules for the common good, the "bullyboys" among them will arise and use violence to enforce their will on everyone else. We can be ruled by common consensus, or we can be ruled by individual greed and violence. Either way we will be ruled. There is no anarchic utopia among humans.

The choice remains this: mutual cooperation for the benefit of all, which requires the forfeiture of some degree of individual freedom and desire from everyone, and persistent oversight to make sure everyone is being served. Or the endless violence and competition of Darwinian social mechanics, in which the most powerful and ruthless individuals rule over everyone else until they are replaced by someone more powerful and ruthless. Human history shows us struggling to establish the former, while continually falling back into the latter.

"Either way we will be ruled." If that's the case (and I mostly agree with that), then we can either be ruled honestly, by a leader who's not afraid to show his face, or by some "shadow government" which puts out the glad hand of "freedom" and "democracy," when it's all just a dirty lie.

 

[PureX]

The people always have control, whether they're conscious of it or not.

Being unaware of a option pretty much precludes it as an option. So does that option being too heinous to reasonably accept.

When we no longer fear torture or death, no one can control us with the threat of torture or death. But we all fear torture and death, if not for ourselves, then for those we love. So that realistically, forced control by the ever-present threat of violence and death, ... nearly always works.

"Either way we will be ruled." If that's the case (and I mostly agree with that), then we can either be ruled honestly, by a leader who's not afraid to show his face, or by some "shadow government" which puts out the glad hand of "freedom" and "democracy," when it's all just a dirty lie.

... Or by a legitimate system of self-rule, through a socially driven, representative form of constitutional democracy. Why are you so determined to exclude mankind's most recent and effective attempts so far, to achieve the ideal? Granted the Unites State's "great experiment" has failed, but some other nations have improved upon our novel attempt over the last several hundred years, and are currently applying it with significant positive effect.

 

[Stevicus]

Being unaware of a option pretty much precludes it as an option. So does that option being too heinous to reasonably accept.

When we no longer fear torture or death, no one can control us with the threat of torture or death. But we all fear torture and death, if not for ourselves, then for those we love. So that realistically, forced control by the ever-present threat of violence and death, ... nearly always works.

It even works in so-called "free" societies as well. But even dictatorships have been overthrown by popular revolt, although it often takes skilled leadership and a tight-knit political organization to remind the people of the power that they hold. That's why they say that the pen is mightier than the sword and why governments (even ours) typically want to control the means of mass communication.

Fear also keeps people in line here in the U.S. How many people refer to the US intelligence community as "big brother" and see it more as something to be feared than anything else? How many people fear the police and the military-industrial complex? The only real difference between that and totalitarianism is that our government operates in the shadows, and nobody knows who's really in charge.

... Or by a legitimate system of self-rule, through a socially driven, representative form of constitutional democracy. Why are you so determined to exclude mankind's most recent and effective attempts so far, to achieve the ideal? Granted the Unites State's "great experiment" has failed, but some other nations have improved upon our novel attempt over the last several hundred years, and are currently applying it with significant positive effect.

I'm not "so determined." I just don't see any real "ideal" here.