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Why Paul but not Smith?
- Thread starter TashaN
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that Paul lived two thousand years ago and Joseph Smith lived two hundred years ago. I don't know why, but for some reason, the same people who claim that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, turn around a insist that it's ludicrous to believe that He could still be communicating with human beings today by the same means He communicated with them anciently.
Do you think it has something to do with a warning by Jesus that there will be no more prophets after him?
But again, if that was true then Paul would be a false prophet, and if Jesus didn't make such a statement then why to put limit on God and let him only speak to those people in the past but not now? Did God disappear or something "God forbid"? or maybe there are no human being who are *good enough* to hold the message of God?
Who really decide that, and how do we know whether someone who claim to be a prophet--like Smith--is a true prophet or a false one?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, if Jesus had said anything of the kind, you might have a point. On the contrary, Jesus personally called prophets to direct the Church He established during His ministry here on earth. Furthermore, He made a point of saying that "some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city."
That is our position exactly. As we read in the Old Testament, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." God never said He was through talking or that He would have nothing more to say. There is nowhere in the Bible that says that either. But in the minds of a lot of people, we are apparently so sophisticated today that we don't need His continued guidance.
Good question. One way would certainly be "by their fruits," although I would be the first to admit that it's not always as easy as we might like to think. There are many millions of people in the world today who are sincerely seeking truth. It's a fact that they don't all end up coming to the same conclusions as to what truth is and who is speaking it.
Ringer
Jar of Clay
I think it has to do with the idea that Joseph Smith's account is unfalsifiable. There is no way that we are able to falsify his experience and know if he really had in his possession what he claimed. I think in regards to Paul it is similar but the other disciples seemed to have their blessing on his writings and from a Christian perspective, the disciples were pretty authoritative
. Hopefully you don't take this as an insult but this is just from my perspective and maybe others see it the same way. Maybe someone from the LDS community can put me in my place.
I think in regards to Paul it is similar but the other disciples seemed to have their blessing on his writings and from a Christian perspective, the disciples were pretty authoritative
Did they have any choice?
I don't think they had any power near what Paul had at that time.
That's sort of a strange opinion -- really I've never heard it before, what do you base it on??
Scott1
Well-Known Member
For the same reason all non-LDS Christians acknowledge Paul and deny ANY post-apostolic "revelation" .... like Mohammed... Joseph Smith... etc. etc. etc..... :
God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father's definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.
:shout
S
Mustard Seed
Jack of all trades... :)
Joseph Smith brought the same revelation as Paul though. The LDS church may be different theologically speaking on some issues but that is all. To dis-credit them, you would have to level out the playing field, with all other christian churches.
daddyholland
Scott1
Well-Known Member
I disagree.... I don't believe Joseph Smith received ANY revelation from God...
Not sure what you mean, but you can be sure I "level out" any "church" who claims post-apostolic revelation = I deny them all.
Peace,
S
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
The idea that there can be no post apostolic revelation is an anathema.
To say it as a fact, is to deny God himself freewill.
Apostolic succession is believed by many... to suppose that this can not be accompanied by revelation would be very strange in deed.
It would be reasonable for a church to deny the possibility of revelation to others in order to maintain their own Authority... but it can only be done by reducing the nature of God's power.
To say it as a fact, is to deny God himself freewill.
Apostolic succession is believed by many... to suppose that this can not be accompanied by revelation would be very strange in deed.
It would be reasonable for a church to deny the possibility of revelation to others in order to maintain their own Authority... but it can only be done by reducing the nature of God's power.
FFH
Veteran Member
It has to do with acceptance of higher doctrines of salvation, which Joseph Smith has established, through revelations given to him by Jesus Christ.
Paul appeals to the most basic of Chistians, while Joseph Smith appeals to those who want more of Chist's teachings and doctrines of salvation...
There are different levels of Christianity...
Two worlds will hold two different types of Christians, the Celestial (those who accept the Father and the Son) and Terrestrial (those who only accept the Son)...
Those who do not accept the Father or the Son will live in the Telestial world and those who deny the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost will be cast into Outer Darkness.
This is a basic description, of which there is a more detailed description found in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 76.
God knew Saul/Paul was a fake prophet...its even been made a proverb....
Yet Joseph Smith was asked and right to look more...yet did not look enough.....
Else he would have seen John Nicodemus was a Pharisee and is fake rubbish!!!
Paul contradicts Yeshua entirely!!!
Simon was named stone (peter) by Yeshua and is referred to as Pharisee also.....
So if you follow any of these, we can prove you are Anti-Christ’s.....
Yet Joseph Smith was asked and right to look more...yet did not look enough.....
Else he would have seen John Nicodemus was a Pharisee and is fake rubbish!!!
Paul contradicts Yeshua entirely!!!
Simon was named stone (peter) by Yeshua and is referred to as Pharisee also.....
So if you follow any of these, we can prove you are Anti-Christ’s.....
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Oooooh...nice! Always love it when someone busts out an anathema... cool word.
One has nothing to do with the other.... we just believe that God spoke his final word in Jesus Christ and this is no more need for further revelation.... it's not a matter of maintaining authority or to deny the free will of God, but simple common sense-- why have faith in something at all when you can just sit around and wait for the next best thing? It just does not make a lotta sense to those of us with orthodox faith...
Hope you understand what I'm getting at...
S
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I understand you position very well , however this is not a debate thread.Oooooh...nice! Always love it when someone busts out an anathema... cool word.
One has nothing to do with the other.... we just believe that God spoke his final word in Jesus Christ and this is no more need for further revelation.... it's not a matter of maintaining authority or to deny the free will of God, but simple common sense-- why have faith in something at all when you can just sit around and wait for the next best thing? It just does not make a lotta sense to those of us with orthodox faith...
Hope you understand what I'm getting at...
S
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Biblically what Christ said...So not Moses or the Pharisees (John, Paul, Simon) as they sit in the same seat......
Scott1
Well-Known Member
How do you know what Christ said?
Remember the Character; know the Bible, sounds like me......Plus more then one witness in unison, makes more sense then blatant contradiction....
Scott1
Well-Known Member
So.... you get your information about Christ from the same text filled with false teachers like Paul, Peter, et al.... that it?
What leads you to believe the words of Christ in Scripture are accurate? If the early Church was so confused as to add false teachings in it, why would you trust they represent the true words of Christ?