Why say Magic instead of Placebo?

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Beg your pardon, but I have to ask. What is your experience in handling grant funding and allocation in academia (aka, at public and private universities)?

I have read countless funded academic papers that are nothing but waffle.
What is yours?

 

[Erebus]

Beg your pardon, but I have to ask. What is your experience in handling grant funding and allocation in academia (aka, at public and private universities)?

Maybe I'm being UK-centric again, but there's been a recent debacle over planned slashes to a lot of university grants here. Lots of obfuscation on the part of the politicians responsible for it too.

*Edit*
Nevermind, I misunderstood what was being said.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Thank you

Language can be a very powerful tool, perhaps more powerful than people sometimes realise. I don't know a great deal about what you describe here, it's not something I've really seen brought up in quite that way. I do agree though that it's a potent weapon in the arsenal of any politician skilled in its use.

Let me give a simple example.
I buy some chewing gum.
It has big lettering saying 'SUGAR FREE'.
But if you read the fine print it has all sorts of words listed which are 'scientifical' ways of saying sugar.
To be technical, they're 'glycemic'.
But its quite commonly understood that sugar is synonymous with glycemic.
But the medical lawyer will say 'blah blah blah', so that people get ill buying junk food and more money is made by the liars.

 

[1137]

I think a big problem with non practitioners understanding magic may be this cultural revolt we seem to be going through. Antitheism and materialism are becoming increasingly aggressive and dogmatic, almost mirroring the mainstream religions it is so obsessed with bringing down. One thing required for understanding magic is the realization that there is, indeed, something about humans that is superior, or at least special, compared to other aspects of nature. The very abilities that define us go against everything else that has ever been seen in nature. But with this cultural shift, humans have to be seen as pathetic animals, slaves to determinism and their laughable needs, drifting aimlessly through meaningless lives. This view is not compatible with magical practices, similar to "put up or shut up." The second a person realizes just how crazy the mind is, he or she is almost guaranteed to start questioning just how dumb of apes we really are.

 

[outhouse]

One thing required for understanding magic is the realization that there is, indeed, something about humans that is superior, or at least special, compared to other aspects of nature

Thank you

You just described PSEUDOSCIENCE to a T

 

[outhouse]

The very abilities that define us go against everything else that has ever been seen in nature

You cannot substantiate that in any credible fashion

The abilities that define us, are all explainable with credibility. Not imaginative supernatural based explanations for what one does not understand.

 

[Quintessence]

I have read countless funded academic papers that are nothing but waffle.

That's not what I was asking. Anyone with access to a public library can read (pardon, it would be more accurate to say "attempt to read") peer-reviewed literature. That is a very different thing than being directly involved in the processes that lead to their creation, including but not limited to writing grant proposals, reviewing grant proposals, and allocating funding. It sounds to me like you're a layperson passing judgement rather than someone with relevant expertise who can thus meaningfully comment upon how research and sciences operate. Would you describe yourself as anti-science?

 

[outhouse]

But with this cultural shift, humans have to be seen as pathetic animals, slaves to determinism and their laughable needs, drifting aimlessly through meaningless lives.

Negative much?

The second a person realizes just how crazy the mind is, he or she is almost guaranteed to start questioning just how dumb of apes we really

Speak for yourself not others.

You define just about everything as magic and live in a world surrounded by magic, which the most credible claims would be that you created this yourself.

An observer with an open mind and no bias, would see nothing to report on outside your personal experiences that does not count at all for anything credible.

 

[outhouse]

I think a big problem with non practitioners understanding magic may be this cultural revolt we seem to be going through

You think it has ever been different??? Today you have more freedom that has never been granted before.

That does not mean it is considered socially acceptable, or that it ever will be.

There is no cultural revolt regarding this. Its just the reality that society has always looked down upon such.

 

[Quintessence]

I think a big problem with non practitioners understanding magic may be this cultural revolt we seem to be going through. Antitheism and materialism are becoming increasingly aggressive and dogmatic, almost mirroring the mainstream religions it is so obsessed with bringing down. One thing required for understanding magic is the realization that there is, indeed, something about humans that is superior, or at least special, compared to other aspects of nature. The very abilities that define us go against everything else that has ever been seen in nature. But with this cultural shift, humans have to be seen as pathetic animals, slaves to determinism and their laughable needs, drifting aimlessly through meaningless lives. This view is not compatible with magical practices, similar to "put up or shut up." The second a person realizes just how crazy the mind is, he or she is almost guaranteed to start questioning just how dumb of apes we really are.

I disagree with much of this rhetoric, though I'm not sure it's worth going into the details of that. But I will say I find it somewhat sad when people take our kinship and relatedness with our non-human brothers and sisters as... something pathetic.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Definitions of terms in English include those used by specialist communities, so... that's not quite how I would put it, no. There isn't "the" definition of magic in English, there are many definitions of magic in English, including the many understandings one finds within occult/metaphysical communities.... along with a ton of other ones.

But... I mean... for realz. The evolution of language - what you call "warping" it - is creativity. It's how language evolves. By "warping" it - by creating new meaning. That... is kind of how people use language. Meh, @Riverwolf is better at explaining that kind of stuff. I defer to them.

Ok so what value does language have?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Yes, and you knowing where your safe key is doesn't make it any less occult. This is why your point about magic and mystery is ridiculous.

Therefore the word occult has no special meaning to it just like magic.

Your "magic" would no be occult to you because you claim to not know it therefore it would not be magic.

Yeah actually, it was my original major and I excelled at it to such an extent that I still guest speak and teach for philosophy and religion college courses. I asked because all you did was lift some definitions and tie them together. I was asking you to prove, logically or empirically, that the mind is 100% tied to the materialistic world of nature, which you didn't even come close to doing. Words have nothing to do with it. As I said, if you could prove this you would likely be world famous, but you, nor anyone can.

I do not believe you.

We are arguing about the definitions of words, therefore I can use definitions to make my case.

Erm, I stand by what I said. Wicca is a religion, Thelema is a philosophy,and chaos magick is an admittedly psychological practice. Of course some Wiccans use magic, though not all, which was my point. How did I slander you? At least now we know you have no kind of extensive background in the areas.

I was saying that I practiced magic with Wiccans of which most traditions use magic.

Are you calling me a lair because your brain cannot process it?

And I said IF a doctor understands the practice of medicine, they are no longer practicing medicine? I got to say I was excited when you joined the forum, but now I just can't settle on if you're purposely trolling or just have no idea what you're talking about.

I AM SAYING THAT BY DEFINATION IF YOU UNDERSTAND MAGIC THAT IT IS NOT MAGIC TO YOU.

Quit insulting me when YOU are cannot even read my posts!

 

[1137]

Thank you

You just described PSEUDOSCIENCE to a T

I don't see how considering that I always back my beliefs with both science and reason.

You cannot substantiate that in any credible fashion

The abilities that define us, are all explainable with credibility. Not imaginative supernatural based explanations for what one does not understand.

I don't see why they need to be supernatural, they just need to be isolated from the rest of nature and able to willfully and subjectively influence it, bend the objective to the subjective. We have objective proof that humans do this.

Negative much?




Speak for yourself not others.

You define just about everything as magic and live in a world surrounded by magic, which the most credible claims would be that you created this yourself.

An observer with an open mind and no bias, would see nothing to report on outside your personal experiences that does not count at all for anything credible.

I agree that it is negative.

I define magic I'm very specific ways and always have, even when my definition evolved. I'm not sure what you're saying about creating things myself, can you clarify?

Outhouse, you wouldn't know an open mind if it burrowed into your eye. Open mindedness is probably what led all of us here to magic and occultism, the ability to realize everyone claiming to understand the universe was lying. It's funny how supposed skeptics today fight tooth and nail for dogmatic beliefs that they can never prove beyond their own experience and interpretation of evidence.

 

[outhouse]

Open mindedness is probably what led all of us here to magic and occultism

A fringe group society often looks down upon, does not get to define what is and is not "Open mindedness"

 

[1137]

So being skeptical is a bad thing.

Also if you are so right and mighty, why do you feel the need to insult me?

No, being skeptical is great. This angsty, closed minded, dogmatic, modern skepticism isn't too respectable, but I respect actual skeptics. If you had the slightest philosophical abilities you would understand how materialism and skepticism contradict each other. For me, I feel like I need to confess to a priest for wasting so much of my time. I think I'll follow suit and move on to better topics!

 

[1137]

Hey @Erebus I'm not sure if you know about this, but studies have begun to show that placebos can work without deception. In this study, for example, placebo without deception significantly reduced subjective pain symptoms. I personally don't see why this wouldn't work one step further with self administered placebos. This idea people have that placebos are not real has, it seems, been empirically disproven.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015591

 

[outhouse]

. This idea people have that placebos are not real has, it seems, been empirically disproven.

Nothing was empirically disproven here. It was one test that showed positive results.

And no one states placebos are not real. They have always been perceived as having LIMITED positive effects to negative effects. DEPENDING on the illness being treated.

In context it falls in line with homeopathic treatments, and such things as prayers.

 

[Quintessence]

Ok so what value does language have?

That sounds like a rhetorical question. I think it would be more efficient to skip the rhetorical questions and move on to whatever it is you wanted to say?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

That sounds like a rhetorical question. I think it would be more efficient to skip the rhetorical questions and move on to whatever it is you wanted to say?

Im sorry if that is how it sounded, but the question was indeed sincere.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

You don't understand how assuming a world view, and judging all information based on that belief, when the view cannot be empirically proven and can be logically debated against, contradicts skepticism? I've got to be honest, I'm hard to trick, but this whole time I had a sliver of hope that you knew what you were talking about. Enjoy the ignore list!

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/please-try-to-disprove-anything-i-believe.184510/

Please try to debate me out of anything I believe.

I love to be proven wrong.