Why Scientists need to accept Eastern thought

[tayla]

I hear quantum physics.Is starting to agree with eastern thought.

I have experience with both. I disagree with your claim.

 

[tayla]

Quantum Physics Explains How Your Thoughts Create Reality you should go to this site.

As is typical with new age information, the article you link to misrepresents what quantum mechanics is and how it works.

 

[tayla]

Do you believe only the natural sciences can provide us with objective knowledge? Historical knowledge is not derived through repeated experiment, neither is philosophical knowledge; and science is in fact a branch of philosophy and would be impossible without it.

Yes, there are more kinds of knowledge than provided by "hard science". The more provable something is, the more trustworthy the conclusions are. Social sciences and history and the like are less trustworthy than the "hard sciences". For example, in economics the law of supply and demand may sometimes fail; perhaps people can figure out why it did, or perhaps not.

Things learned in meditation are not trustworthy except in admitting that the experiences are part of brain activity. But whether the experienced observations are in some way true; that's another question. For example, seeing a unicorn in a vision doesn't mean they exist in the physical world; they only exist in the mind.

So, eastern claims about samadhi and universal consciousness and such; these are untrustworthy. Just because the mind of the mystic experiences such things, doesn't mean they are real, except as manifestations of brain functioning.

 

[tayla]

No because science is not a philosophy nor a religion.

It's a process of establishing facts through observation and experimentation.

Philosophy is the study of knowledge and reality. Science is a branch of philosophy. Because of the scientific method, scientific knowledge is more certain than other kinds of knowledge.

The better the data and the more repeatable the experiments, the more trustworthy the conclusions.

 

[tayla]

Meditation is another way because it can be practiced without personal feelings and prejudices. If anything, it is also repeatable although it is not a third-person method.

Yes. And if you take a certain mind-altering drug, it affects your mind in the same basic way each time. And if you have a certain kind of disease of the brain, the specific kind of damage it causes results in the same basic changes to the mental and conscious experience of the person. And ditto if you receive damage to a certain part of the brain.

But why should I think that any of these have produced a person who in some way has achieved transcendent knowledge and experience about reality?

 

[tayla]

Scientists should only accept eastern thought if it conforms to the scientific method.

Yes, in other words, if they validate the claims via science. The same with religion. Religious claims should only be trusted if they can be validated via science, historical study, psychology, archaeology, and philosophical and logical analysis of the claims. Sadly, religious claims all fail miserably when tested like this.

 

[tayla]

I don't assume all knowledge can be scientifically tested, but I do believe science should be limited to what it can effectively test.

Yes, a good point. Philosophy can provide knowledge as well, and science is based on philosophy and logic. Each kind of discipline has its proper domain and the knowledge they generate has a higher or lower probability associated with the truth claims.

For example, knowledge about human language use 150,000 years ago is much less certain than 200 years ago. The data is better and more trustworthy.

 

[tayla]

If you would like to argue with how they've framed 'science', and would instead suggest it's an encompassing term already including non-material concepts, go for it.

I think science will have to address seemingly non-material concepts to get at the root of understanding consciousness. Perhaps someone will postulate a new attribute of the material universe; something weirdly similar to energy, and entropy, and the flow of time, and quantum mechanics. All these are weird, yet they are material. Consciousness is weird too, and there is no reason to think it is not physical in the same kind of weird way.

 

[tayla]

Dr. Eben Alexander was a hardline materialist, and he is now convinced after he experienced.

I hope you're not seriously proposing Dr. Eben Alexander as an example of reputable and trustworthy scientists who now realize that eastern teachings are provably true.

 

[tayla]

Meditation is already an added method when you consider that it is used in medicine. I'm only proposing to broaden its use to also include it as a tool for knowledge.

The only value meditation has in regards to knowledge is to show what you experience when you meditate. Your knowledge is limited to what you experience and to what kinds of experience the brain is capable of producing.

 

[cladking]

Eastern thinkers don't know anything more about consciousness than western science does. They just have more experience with altered states of consciousness and the hallucinations and imaginations experienced. Just because someone feels that everything is generated by consciousness (for example) doesn't mean it's true. Ditto for all the other claims by mystics about consciousness.

I suspect you're wrong. I believe consciousness in modern humans is an artefact of language. If you can experience what's around you outside of language then you should have a different consciousness and one that is in tune with reality or at least reflective of the nature of the brain.

 

[tayla]

Materialists would have you believe that the scientific method came down from Heaven, fully formed.

Materialists are aware of the history of science and of philosophy. And they are aware that living scientists are the ones who do science. Scientists are not like the religious who accept information received from hallucinations and dreams and visions as trustworthy sources of truth.

 

[tayla]

So two people using meditation to access different states of consciousness experience the same thing?
Or are you suggesting there are multiple objective truths?

I'm not surprised that multiple people doing the same kind of meditation techniques experience the same kinds of things. The brain works the way it works, and various meditations trigger various brain functioning. These specific kinds of experiences are inherent in brain construction.

The question is, do all possible kinds of brain functioning generate true knowledge about reality? And, are imaginations (for example) a kind of true knowledge about reality?

 

[tayla]

Eastern philosophy is more older and seasoned than western philosophy which is of recent origin and understandably half-baked.

Should we adopt and prefer the ideas and beliefs of the early hunter-gathers of 200,000 years ago, because they are old?

Western philosophy is hardly half-baked. It is very mature. It provides the basis for science and mathematics and morality and governance and all kinds of other useful human endeavors.

 

[tayla]

The world wars have been attributed to western philosophies like nihilism and the like by western scholars and psychiatrists themselves.

Probably not a good idea to assume that such and such an idea caused more human suffering than another idea. Doing so means that, if there is even any human suffering cause by an idea, then that idea is false. I'll bet you can find suffering caused by eastern thought; starvation, killing babies, etc.

Also, your characterization of the cause of the world wars is simplistic and ignores many important factors.

 

[tayla]

I would say at this point of time western philosophy is highly dangerous and a great danger to the world as well.

What?? Are you suggesting that societies based on eastern thought are utopias and, in fact, superior to western societies?

 

[tayla]

Presently we can see defence scientists all over the world investing their intellectual energies in creating weapons of mass destruction to promote national power, domination and glory.

Don't eastern countries do the same kinds of things? How does eastern thought prevent this?

 

[tayla]

Global warming levels are steadily rising resulting in aberrant weather patterns and rising sea levels threatenting coastal regions and islands.

Forests and jungles are being destroyed at a furious pace resulting in an unprecedented destruction of much of the world's flora and fauna and over one million plant and animal species are facing extinction.

Even primitive tribes pollute the water and burn forests. How can you support billions of people without having these kinds of consequences? Is the answer for everyone in the world to stop eating and procreating and to enter in to mystic meditative states?

We are products of biology, biological organisms with behaviors and responses resulting from the functioning of the organism. Science didn't invent biology. Science merely explains it.

 

[tayla]

All this shows that science at present is in the wrong hands, and poses more of a danger than good to humanity and the world.

I agree completely that the levers of power are in the wrong hands. Those who wish to exploit the psychological and cognitive weaknesses of their fellow humans, to sell more products (products not even needed), and to amass power and wealth so they can control the various social functions and so they can skim off excessive profit to enrich themselves.

But, it's not the scientists doing this; it's the huge corporations, and political leaders, and extremely wealthy people; those who have the means and power to control others on this scale. You have identified the wrong enemy of civilization.

 

[tayla]

in tune with reality or at least reflective of the nature of the brain.

Seems to me we should assume that the human organism as it exists is already "perfect". It was not created flawed, needing for us to improve it by a lifetime of meditation and other ascetic practices.

Who came up with the idea that humans are flawed, needing fixing?