Why Scientists need to accept Eastern thought

[stvdv]

"In the East, the nature of the world is Consciousness. "

A little question:
What is the source of knowledge of "human consciousness", please?

Regards

In my understanding (Eastern view) there is Consciousness. There is not "human Consciousness".

Consciousness just IS. Consciousness does not belong to humans (e.g. "human Consciousness" is not a correct way to put it (Eastern view) ).

Human Consciousness is duality,
Consciousness not

I have the feeling you had "Allah" in mind, in your question "what is the source..."

IF so, maybe Consciousness (Eastern view) is what Allah (Islamic view) is

Both are IMHU beyond words, beyond intellectual understanding. Can't be grasped by the "human mind".

 

[Darkstorn]

I don't answer to you

No, but you answer to your volition:

If you choose to present an argument, and also choose to ignore defending said argument, or be reasonable about said argument, then you also choose to be disruptive to a debate on purpose:

This is a debate forum, and if you make a claim you cannot substantiate, then your claim is worth nothing. Either to us, or to you.

TLDR: If you care for your own argument, defend it. You just showed to us, but especially to yourself, that you're lazy.

 

[Shad]

Can anyone describe the essential difference between "Eastern" and "Western" thought?
I'm not clear what we're actually discussing here.

Western Thought is more or less a single monolithic set of philosophical thoughts, ideas and traditions which multiple people had access to and follow. It is a continuation going from now all the way back the Greeks.

Eastern Thought is merely the label of the West that encompasses a region not a line of tradition. So different philosophies under that label may have nothing to do with each other than sharing a continent under a regional identification. Mozi in China didn't follow the same ideas or even know of ideas of Santideva Eastern Thought as a category is next to meaningless.

 

[stvdv]

No, but you answer to your volition:

If you choose to present an argument, and also choose to ignore defending said argument, or be reasonable about said argument, then you also choose to be disruptive to a debate on purpose:

This is a debate forum, and if you make a claim you cannot substantiate, then your claim is worth nothing. Either to us, or to you.

TLDR: If you care for your own argument, defend it. You just showed to us, but especially to yourself, that you're lazy.

You missed my point. The person was belittling. I don't answer to persons who are arrogant or belittle others. Nothing to do with being lazy.

 

[Darkstorn]

You missed my point. The person was belittling. I don't answer to persons who are arrogant or belittle others. Nothing to do with being lazy.

Yes, but that just betrays your own arrogance. You are now belittling me by shooting down my advice.

You have also failed to convince me that you aren't lazy; In fact, it sounds suspiciously like an excuse to not have to defend your own claims or arguments.

But good to know that's the level of care you put into it. Maybe the other guy was right in his actions.

 

[paarsurrey]

In my understanding (Eastern view) there is Consciousness. There is not "human Consciousness".

Consciousness just IS. Consciousness does not belong to humans (e.g. "human Consciousness" is not a correct way to put it (Eastern view) ).

Human Consciousness is duality,
Consciousness not

I have the feeling you had "Allah" in mind, in your question "what is the source..."

IF so, maybe Consciousness (Eastern view) is what Allah (Islamic view) is

Both are IMHU beyond words, beyond intellectual understanding. Can't be grasped by the "human mind".

"maybe Consciousness (Eastern view) is what Allah (Islamic view) is"

If one's All-Consciousness concept depicts :
"[2:256]اَللّٰہُ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّا ہُوَۚ اَلۡحَیُّ الۡقَیُّوۡمُ ۬ۚ لَا تَاۡخُذُہٗ سِنَۃٌ وَّ لَا نَوۡمٌ ؕ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ مَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ مَنۡ ذَا الَّذِیۡ یَشۡفَعُ عِنۡدَہٗۤ اِلَّا بِاِذۡنِہٖ ؕ یَعۡلَمُ مَا بَیۡنَ اَیۡدِیۡہِمۡ وَ مَا خَلۡفَہُمۡ ۚ وَ لَا یُحِیۡطُوۡنَ بِشَیۡءٍ مِّنۡ عِلۡمِہٖۤ اِلَّا بِمَا شَآءَ ۚ وَسِعَ کُرۡسِیُّہُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضَ ۚ وَ لَا یَـُٔوۡدُہٗ حِفۡظُہُمَا ۚ وَ ہُوَ الۡعَلِیُّ الۡعَظِیۡمُ ﴿۲۵۶﴾
Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great."
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
then, yes.

Regards

 

[ecco]

Please read the quote in my signature.

Nah. If you've got something to say, say it.

It says you are pure awareness. If this is so, then you never "came into being". Only your "body" came into being.

So, since I can think, I did come into being.
So, since I did come into being, I am not pure awareness.
So, since I am not pure awareness, your tagline / signature is nonsense.

 

[ecco]

I did not
I can answer
I don't answer to you

And I stopped having discussions with you for reasons that are obvious to you and me.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Scientists need to accept Eastern thought

Scientists use Science as a tool to know as to how nature works and by definition it is limited to know only the factors that are material and physical . Science cannot know the others factor nature works under, so that is "The Science Delusion" and or the delusion of the scientists if they deny them. Right, please?

Regards
_________________
For some of them are one may like to read "The Science Delusion" by Rupert Sheldrake:
Nationality: British
Education: PhD (biochemistry), University of Cambridge[2]

• Frank Knox Fellow (philosophy and history of science), Harvard University
• MA (natural sciences), Clare College, Cambridge
• Occupation Researcher, author, critic

Employer The Perrott-Warrick Fund (2005–2010)
Website www.sheldrake.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake

 

[Swami]

Nah. If you've got something to say, say it.



So, since I can think, I did come into being.
So, since I did come into being, I am not pure awareness.
So, since I am not pure awareness, your tagline / signature is nonsense.

You are not even your thoughts. Pure awareness only involves observing; it is simply the witness of existence. You did not begin as an "I". Before the "I", you were undifferentiated and existed as part of everything. You were everything.

One of the big problems with mankind is that they struggle with identity. Deep down they feel that they are more than their body, their mind, and this lifetime. The reason for this feeling is because they existed before their body as a Witness. The goal of Eastern thought it to get mankind to realize their fundamental self.

 

[stvdv]

You missed my point. The person was belittling. I don't answer to persons who are arrogant or belittle others. Nothing to do with being lazy.

Yes, but that just betrays your own arrogance. You are now belittling me by shooting down my advice.

You have also failed to convince me that you aren't lazy; In fact, it sounds suspiciously like an excuse to not have to defend your own claims or arguments.

But good to know that's the level of care you put into it. Maybe the other guy was right in his actions.

 

[SalixIncendium]

So, since I can think, I did come into being.
So, since I did come into being, I am not pure awareness.
So, since I am not pure awareness, your tagline / signature is nonsense.

One cannot come to a logical conclusion with a faulty premise.

Did you have a brain before you came into being? How does one think without a brain?

 

[stvdv]

"maybe Consciousness (Eastern view) is what Allah (Islamic view) is"

If one's All-Consciousness concept depicts :
"[2:256]اَللّٰہُ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّا ہُوَۚ اَلۡحَیُّ الۡقَیُّوۡمُ ۬ۚ لَا تَاۡخُذُہٗ سِنَۃٌ وَّ لَا نَوۡمٌ ؕ لَہٗ مَا فِی السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ مَا فِی الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ مَنۡ ذَا الَّذِیۡ یَشۡفَعُ عِنۡدَہٗۤ اِلَّا بِاِذۡنِہٖ ؕ یَعۡلَمُ مَا بَیۡنَ اَیۡدِیۡہِمۡ وَ مَا خَلۡفَہُمۡ ۚ وَ لَا یُحِیۡطُوۡنَ بِشَیۡءٍ مِّنۡ عِلۡمِہٖۤ اِلَّا بِمَا شَآءَ ۚ وَسِعَ کُرۡسِیُّہُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضَ ۚ وَ لَا یَـُٔوۡدُہٗ حِفۡظُہُمَا ۚ وَ ہُوَ الۡعَلِیُّ الۡعَظِیۡمُ ﴿۲۵۶﴾
Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great."
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
then, yes.

Regards

If one's All-Consciousness concept depicts :

I am fine with this, if you just write "Consciousness"
Conscious just is. Words like "All-knowing" are just used to describe what is "beyond words"

 

[stvdv]

And I stopped having discussions with you for reasons that are obvious to you and me.

Yes, I understand. Thank you.

 

[ecco]

You are not even your thoughts. Pure awareness only involves observing; it is simply the witness of existence. You did not begin as an "I". Before the "I", you were undifferentiated and existed as part of everything. You were everything.

This is typical nonsensical "Eastern Thought" and why it is rejected by rational people around the world.

One of the big problems with mankind is that they struggle with identity. Deep down they feel that they are more than their body, their mind, and this lifetime.

Perhaps you are the one who is struggling with identity. Perhaps, deep down, you believe that you want to be more than a body, a mind, and this lifetime. It ain't me. It ain't mankind. It's just a bunch of "Eastern Thought" woosters.

The reason for this feeling is because they existed before their body as a Witness. The goal of Eastern thought it to get mankind to realize their fundamental self.

The goal of this kind of Eastern thought it to get gullible Westerners to spend money buying nonsense books and listening to nonsense Gurus.

 

[ecco]

So, since I can think, I did come into being.
So, since I did come into being, I am not pure awareness.
So, since I am not pure awareness, your tagline / signature is nonsense.

One cannot come to a logical conclusion with a faulty premise.

Did you have a brain before you came into being? How does one think without a brain?

What faulty premise? Where did I say I could think before I came into being? Where did I say I could think before I had a brain?

Perhaps your comment should be addressed to the swamis of the world.

 

[SalixIncendium]

What faulty premise? Where did I say I could think before I came into being?

So, since I can think, I did come into being.

 

[ecco]

.

ecco:
What faulty premise? Where did I say I could think before I came into being?
​

You responded by posting my comment...

ecco:
So, since I can think, I did come into being.​

I do believe you have a problem comprehending basic English.
"I can think" refers to the current time period.
"I did come into being" refers to a past time period.

So, again, where did I say I could think before I came into being?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I will try to keep my topic simple. There are multiple reasons why Western scientists need to adopt but I will only offer two:

1. Eastern thought provides an objective approach to acquire knowledge.
Eastern mystics discovered a practice and tool long ago to explore consciousness and reality, and that practice is 'meditation'. This method is objective because it removes the filters that tend to distort reality - the mind and senses. If you cease all mental and sensory input, then you are no longer subject to bias, feelings, limitations but rather you experience reality as it is.

2. Eastern thought has a wealth of knowledge that deals with the same things that scientists deal with- the nature of consciousness and reality.
Eastern thinkers did not intend to explore every bit of physical Universe like science does. Eastern thinkers main focus was on the nature of consciousness and reality. As such, the mystics have discovered different states of consciousness that go beyond the limited classifications of scientists. One fact from Eastern thought is that consciousness does not exist independently of matter. Another fact is that consciousness can transcend "self" when it exists in everything (or as part of everything) as opposed to being fixed to one thing. Call this universal or Cosmic consciousness. Given the fact that Western materialist scientists are stumped when it comes to consciousness, it would be wise they seek insight from Eastern thinkers. To date, many scientists are flocking to the Dalai Lama so that should tell you something.

Your thoughts. Do you agree that science needs to adopt Eastern thought?

I have not read all of this thread but my two cents:

I agree directionally that scientists should learn about and benefit from the insights of Eastern thought - and indeed, all thought.

Turning off the senses may be great as a meditative practice. But of course ultimately, to do science we need to stop looking inward sometimes, to get out there and explore the external world and really turn on our senses.

 

[Swami]

This is typical nonsensical "Eastern Thought" and why it is rejected by rational people around the world.

It is interesting that the skeptic tends to jump to the magical or extraordinary aspects. When you are examining a belief and you start there, of course it is going to be very hard to believe. But if you start where I suggested, which is with first discovering the nature of consciousness, then all or most of what I'm saying would become easier to accept.

So far, you seem unwilling to admit that scientists do not understand the nature of consciousness. It also seems that you are closed off to any explanations from the Eastern worldview despite my suggestion for you to experience it for yourself as opposed to taking my word for it.