Why should I ignore myself?

[AmbiguousGuy]

Why do I doubt that?...

I really don't know, sojourner. Doubt can spring from lots of places. Usually we just have to accept it.

Quite telling with regard to your understanding of God, methinks.

Thanks. I'm pretty sure I have a special talent for all of that.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Which is, of course, why you "understand God" so well.

Sure. Holy words will confuse a person, in my opinion.

The Holy Spirit inspired them to be written. Why would the Holy Spirit not want you to read them, if the Holy Spirit is so authoritative that:

I don't understand your question, but can you say why you believe that the Holy Spirit inspired any particular scriptures?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Draka,

The question becomes, why should I accept that anyone else's take is any better than my own?

Because we do it all the time. If you were going to have heart surgery you wouldn't have to 'experience' what it's like to be a heart surgeon. You trust that the heart surgeon knows what he is doing and your trust would be correct about 99% of the time. That same logic applies to religion. Well, first off, I know of few people coming to believe in a certain religion because of an experience he heard about. Most, in my opinion, simply believe the claims are true. And in that case your authority is simply the laws of logic (that's how I became a Catholic).

 

[Draka]

Hi Draka,



Because we do it all the time. If you were going to have heart surgery you wouldn't have to 'experience' what it's like to be a heart surgeon. You trust that the heart surgeon knows what he is doing and your trust would be correct about 99% of the time. That same logic applies to religion. Well, first off, I know of few people coming to believe in a certain religion because of an experience he heard about. Most, in my opinion, simply believe the claims are true. And in that case your authority is simply the laws of logic (that's how I became a Catholic).

The same logic does not really apply to religion as the Divine cannot be scientifically studied and discerned. Why should I trust that what one person says about religion is any more right than another or myself? Without substantial and verifiable evidence to back up a certain person's claim on religion I have no more reason to believe them than anyone else.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Draka,

The same logic does not really apply to religion as the Divine cannot be scientifically studied and discerned. Why should I trust that what one person says about religion is any more right than another or myself? Without substantial and verifiable evidence to back up a certain person's claim on religion I have no more reason to believe them than anyone else.

Well, in a way you are right. I think logic can arrive at the conclusion that there is a God (the Kalaam Cosmological argument for starters) and in the case of Christianity, Jesus was an actual historical person and most of the events surrounding his life can be verified. But yes, religions that make claims that cannot any way be assessed by reason and logic then it's a crapshoot.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Or rather my own experiences and personal spiritual revelations in favor of someone else's? Why should the religious opinions or stories in a book or of someone else who may or may not have lived long ago trump my own opinions and reasoning and revelations? Why should I even try to ignore myself in favor of you and your respective holy book? What possible reason would I have for doing so and why do you feel I should have to?

Hey, it's the Gwynnite agenda...

Which is to say, ignore nothing, consider everything; and if they give you any lip, just tell 'em - Almighty is addition, not subtraction.

 

[CaptainBritain]

Which is, of course, why you "understand God" so well.

The Holy Spirit inspired them to be written. Why would the Holy Spirit not want you to read them, if the Holy Spirit is so authoritative that:


Head games.

unless the holy spirit didnt inspire them and he is being warned about it.

Like I always say, claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Each claim made during this thread by all as to contact with the divine carry the exact same weight.

But on a hypothetical, if the Holy Spirit told you not to trust the Bible, would you follow that advice?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

unless the holy spirit didnt inspire them and he is being warned about it.

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is the actual case.

Some false spirit, or else no spirit at all, inspired the world's scriptures. All of them. Now the Holy Spirit has warned me about it. The warning has been expressed to me with some alarm.

I'm told that anyone who embraces a group of words as if embracing God... has fallen victim to magical thinking. Further, if a believer takes those words too seriously, he may risk a life of serious confusion.

Like I always say, claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Each claim made during this thread by all as to contact with the divine carry the exact same weight.

I will admit, it's one reason I've trained myself to speak in the language of the prophet, at least when in the company of prophet-believers.

Plus, it's only polite.

 

[blackout]

Other PEOPLE interest me, yes.
Their beliefs..... not so much.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Why do I doubt that?...
Oh, yeah! your religion:
Quite telling with regard to your understanding of God, methinks.

Hey, soujourner. I see I've misread your message a little bit. I didn't understand your posting convention, but now I see it. After the colons above should go 'me&God'.

And that is just why I know as much about ghosts and God as anyone else. I don't allow anyone else to get between me and them. It's just me and God.

Does that help you understand my theology a little better?

 

[CaptainBritain]

Hey, soujourner. I see I've misread your message a little bit. I didn't understand your posting convention, but now I see it. After the colons above should go 'me&God'.

And that is just why I know as much about ghosts and God as anyone else. I don't allow anyone else to get between me and them. It's just me and God.

Does that help you understand my theology a little better?

Oh if everybody was a religion of one and never tried to thrust it on the bloke next door how happy the World would be, yep your theology sounds great to me, dont believe a word of it without any evidence but the glory of your theology is that you are not wanting me too, fabulous

 

[Acim]

Topic?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Oh if everybody was a religion of one and never tried to thrust it on the bloke next door how happy the World would be, yep your theology sounds great to me, dont believe a word of it without any evidence but the glory of your theology is that you are not wanting me too, fabulous

Well, to be fair, I do preach the Gospel of AmbiguousGuy everywhere I go. But I'm currently short of horses and sabers, so actual Crusades are beyond my ability.

No, all I can do is tell it and hope that it falls on the receptive soil of unhardened hearts. (Just got a new book on metaphor mixing.)

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Topic?

Why should we ignore the God within us and embrace the other guy's Holy Book instead?

Something like that. Can you see the first post?

 

[Draka]

Why should we ignore the God within us and embrace the other guy's Holy Book instead?

Something like that. Can you see the first post?

In a way. Why should one ignore their own spiritual experiences and understanding of whatever they perceive deity to be in favor of someone else's just because they base theirs on a supposed "holy" book?

 

[Acim]

yep your theology sounds great to me, dont believe a word of it without any evidence but the glory of your theology is that you are not wanting me too, fabulous

and

Why should we ignore the God within us and embrace the other guy's Holy Book instead?

Something like that. Can you see the first post?

Topic? (post by me) was asked for 2 reasons.

Obvious reason, it seemed to be straying off topic raised in OP.

Less obvious reason, responding (indirectly) to CaptainBritain, OP suggests evidence for faith (even Reason) can be found within, why ignore that to go with other guy's Holy Book (or version of 'evidence')?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

In a way. Why should one ignore their own spiritual experiences and understanding of whatever they perceive deity to be in favor of someone else's just because they base theirs on a supposed "holy" book?

In my experience, some people are unthinking when it comes to their own scriptures. I mean, it's an embedded truth, usually embedded since babyhood. The concept of 'scripture' itself is embedded, certainly in western civilization. Our assumption is that if we want to learn about God, we open a scripture -- usually the scripture of our parents and community -- and start studying.

But from my perspective, that's all messed up. Scriptures are collections of writing by primitive, magic-believing folk, laid down in ancient dead tongues and foreign cultures, edited over the years in chaotic and biased ways, canonized by political intrigue and raw vote, and currently interpreted by some local guy who preaches to us about it every Sunday.

To get truth from that setup requires a serious dollop of faith, I think.

How much better to simply go out in the world, observe and interact, think hard about what it all means, drink a glass of wine, and do our own God-creating. That's got to produce a more accurate notion of God than the scriptural route, I think.

Debating with other minds can also be helpful, I think. Rather than worshipping holy words, it's better to fight about our words, about the most integrated way in which our words can be used to find and express God.

Just my view of it, of course.

 

[CaptainBritain]

and



Topic? (post by me) was asked for 2 reasons.

Obvious reason, it seemed to be straying off topic raised in OP.

Less obvious reason, responding (indirectly) to CaptainBritain, OP suggests evidence for faith (even Reason) can be found within, why ignore that to go with other guy's Holy Book (or version of 'evidence')?

As ive stated no reason why she should, for anothers insights to trump her own natural felt ones imho would require hard evidence, a commodity in very short supply when it comes to these matters, though im a none believer I can grasp personal contact with the divine a lot easier than the concept that a book written by primatives is innerrent, perfect revelation despite all evidence to the contrary.

Those books are removed from the source and written mostly by people we cannot name, and nor can we quiz them, where truth is concerned, closer to the source is usually best, ie a 28th hand account is less likely to be as reliable as a first hand account,

if there is anything spiritual the OP is as close to the source as she can get imho.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Topic? (post by me) was asked for 2 reasons.

Obvious reason, it seemed to be straying off topic raised in OP.

I can't see why you'd think so, but you're welcome to explain if you like.

 

[Draka]

In my experience, some people are unthinking when it comes to their own scriptures. I mean, it's an embedded truth, usually embedded since babyhood. The concept of 'scripture' itself is embedded, certainly in western civilization. Our assumption is that if we want to learn about God, we open a scripture -- usually the scripture of our parents and community -- and start studying.

But from my perspective, that's all messed up. Scriptures are collections of writing by primitive, magic-believing folk, laid down in ancient dead tongues and foreign cultures, edited over the years in chaotic and biased ways, canonized by political intrigue and raw vote, and currently interpreted by some local guy who preaches to us about it every Sunday.

To get truth from that setup requires a serious dollop of faith, I think.

How much better to simply go out in the world, observe and interact, think hard about what it all means, drink a glass of wine, and do our own God-creating. That's got to produce a more accurate notion of God than the scriptural route, I think.

Debating with other minds can also be helpful, I think. Rather than worshipping holy words, it's better to fight about our words, about the most integrated way in which our words can be used to find and express God.

Just my view of it, of course.

May I just say how excellent I think this post is? :clap