Rakovsky
Active Member
The TaNaKh has inspiring, appealing predictions like the future Redemption and Resurrection. I would prefer for them to turn out to be factually true, but I would like to please ask why one would believe that they actually would? Let me explain what I mean.
I. Jews and Christians generally agree that the TaNaKh predicts a future resurrection of the dead. See eg. Isaiah 26, as well as the Talmud's commentary on the passage. They also believe that a Davidic Messiah will come and bring Redemption and the era of this prophesied resurrection of the righteous. They typically agree that the Messiah would be mortal and die, and that he would be crushed in some sense:
For example, Isaiah 42 says:
The 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation puts it as:
Judges 9:53: "And a certain woman cast an upper millstone upon Abimelech's head, and broke his skull."
Ezekiel 29:7: "When they take hold of thee with the hand, thou dost break, and rend all their shoulders; and when they lean upon thee, thou breakest, and makest all their loins to be at a stand."
Psalm 74:14: "Thou didst crush the heads of leviathan, Thou gavest him to be food to the folk inhabiting the wilderness."
Ecclesiastes 12:6: "Before the silver cord is snapped asunder, and the golden bowl is shattered, and the pitcher is broken at the fountain, and the wheel falleth shattered, into the pit"
Maimonides described the Messiah and his era, and then noted:
Menachem Kellner in the book Rethinking the Messianic Idea in Judaism notes about this statement by Maimonides:
I understand that the rabbis don't consider Jesus to be the Messiah. Rabbi Weiman says he doesn't because he considers Isaiah 42:4 Messianic:
כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ. .. וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ,
However, my goal is not to debate Judaism's or Christianity's interpretations of Isaiah 42 and 53
Rather, I am noting that they essentially agree on a major prophetic series of events - that a Davidic Messiah would come, bring in a spiritually blessed era that includes the resurrection of the dead, and then die, perhaps crushed/killed, after which life on earth would continue for a long time afterwards. In the rabbinical reading of Isaiah 42, his law is spread to the islands waiting for it, whereas in the Christian reading, it is spread by his followers to the ends of the earth.
II. And this leads to my main question for the thread: Supposing that we agree that the TaNaKh makes this prediction, how do we know that it must turn out to be factually fulfilled in reality? The TaNaKh has many predictions, so how do we know that their prophecies will match the future physical reality, as opposed to simply being wonderful hopes and allegories?
How would the Biblical writers living in 1100-100 BC know that these kinds of future events would in fact occur?
One response could simply be that the Lord told them or that the Lord inspired them to write this. It's true that the Lord tells Moses things in the Torah, but the explanations about the Messiah are not really clear until at least the time of David his forefather. And I find the prophets' words to show deep moral inspiration and appeal, so I can easily attribute them to the Lord's prompting. But I don't know that just because someone has a moral prompting from the Lord's all-pervasive Spirit that it must mean that anything must occur that an inspiring faithful writer says will happen.
Other than the ancient prophets, are there other examples we can give of inspired writers? I find Martin Luther King Jr., Abraham Lincoln, and Rabbis for Human Rights to be inspiring and to be prompted by the Lord working in them, but I don't think that if they make extreme global predictions that the predictions must definitely occur in the real word. I mean, were Abraham Lincoln to promise every freedman 10 acres and a mule, it's inspiring and I can see how the Lord prompted some of Lincoln's courage and generosity, but I don't know that any such prediction would automatically be fulfilled.
I. Jews and Christians generally agree that the TaNaKh predicts a future resurrection of the dead. See eg. Isaiah 26, as well as the Talmud's commentary on the passage. They also believe that a Davidic Messiah will come and bring Redemption and the era of this prophesied resurrection of the righteous. They typically agree that the Messiah would be mortal and die, and that he would be crushed in some sense:
For example, Isaiah 42 says:
א הֵן עַבְדִּי אֶתְמָךְ-בּוֹ, בְּחִירִי רָצְתָה נַפְשִׁי; נָתַתִּי רוּחִי עָלָיו, מִשְׁפָּט לַגּוֹיִם יוֹצִיא.
ב לֹא יִצְעַק, וְלֹא יִשָּׂא; וְלֹא-יַשְׁמִיעַ בַּחוּץ, קוֹלוֹ.
ג קָנֶה רָצוּץ לֹא יִשְׁבּוֹר, וּפִשְׁתָּה כֵהָה לֹא יְכַבֶּנָּה; לֶאֱמֶת, יוֹצִיא מִשְׁפָּט.
ד לֹא יִכְהֶה וְלֹא יָרוּץ, עַד-יָשִׂים בָּאָרֶץ מִשְׁפָּט; וּלְתוֹרָתוֹ, אִיִּים יְיַחֵלוּ. {פ}.
ב לֹא יִצְעַק, וְלֹא יִשָּׂא; וְלֹא-יַשְׁמִיעַ בַּחוּץ, קוֹלוֹ.
ג קָנֶה רָצוּץ לֹא יִשְׁבּוֹר, וּפִשְׁתָּה כֵהָה לֹא יְכַבֶּנָּה; לֶאֱמֶת, יוֹצִיא מִשְׁפָּט.
ד לֹא יִכְהֶה וְלֹא יָרוּץ, עַד-יָשִׂים בָּאָרֶץ מִשְׁפָּט; וּלְתוֹרָתוֹ, אִיִּים יְיַחֵלוּ. {פ}.
The 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation puts it as:
- Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon him, he shall make the right to go forth to the nations.
- He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
- A bruised reed shall he not break, and the dimly burning wick shall he not quench; he shall make the right to go forth according to the truth.
- He shall not fail nor be crushed, till he have set the right in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his teaching.
Judges 9:53: "And a certain woman cast an upper millstone upon Abimelech's head, and broke his skull."
Ezekiel 29:7: "When they take hold of thee with the hand, thou dost break, and rend all their shoulders; and when they lean upon thee, thou breakest, and makest all their loins to be at a stand."
Psalm 74:14: "Thou didst crush the heads of leviathan, Thou gavest him to be food to the folk inhabiting the wilderness."
Ecclesiastes 12:6: "Before the silver cord is snapped asunder, and the golden bowl is shattered, and the pitcher is broken at the fountain, and the wheel falleth shattered, into the pit"
Maimonides described the Messiah and his era, and then noted:
Menachem Kellner in the book Rethinking the Messianic Idea in Judaism notes about this statement by Maimonides:
I understand that the rabbis don't consider Jesus to be the Messiah. Rabbi Weiman says he doesn't because he considers Isaiah 42:4 Messianic:
I also am aware of the kinds of explanations Christians would give. They could claim that Jesus set the right in the earth by giving the New Testament before he was crushed/broken by the crucifixion. They commonly see Isaiah 53: verses 8 and 10 as Messianic, which talks about the Lord's Servant being cut off from the land of the living and crushed/bruised:
כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ. .. וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ,
However, my goal is not to debate Judaism's or Christianity's interpretations of Isaiah 42 and 53
Rather, I am noting that they essentially agree on a major prophetic series of events - that a Davidic Messiah would come, bring in a spiritually blessed era that includes the resurrection of the dead, and then die, perhaps crushed/killed, after which life on earth would continue for a long time afterwards. In the rabbinical reading of Isaiah 42, his law is spread to the islands waiting for it, whereas in the Christian reading, it is spread by his followers to the ends of the earth.
II. And this leads to my main question for the thread: Supposing that we agree that the TaNaKh makes this prediction, how do we know that it must turn out to be factually fulfilled in reality? The TaNaKh has many predictions, so how do we know that their prophecies will match the future physical reality, as opposed to simply being wonderful hopes and allegories?
How would the Biblical writers living in 1100-100 BC know that these kinds of future events would in fact occur?
One response could simply be that the Lord told them or that the Lord inspired them to write this. It's true that the Lord tells Moses things in the Torah, but the explanations about the Messiah are not really clear until at least the time of David his forefather. And I find the prophets' words to show deep moral inspiration and appeal, so I can easily attribute them to the Lord's prompting. But I don't know that just because someone has a moral prompting from the Lord's all-pervasive Spirit that it must mean that anything must occur that an inspiring faithful writer says will happen.
Other than the ancient prophets, are there other examples we can give of inspired writers? I find Martin Luther King Jr., Abraham Lincoln, and Rabbis for Human Rights to be inspiring and to be prompted by the Lord working in them, but I don't think that if they make extreme global predictions that the predictions must definitely occur in the real word. I mean, were Abraham Lincoln to promise every freedman 10 acres and a mule, it's inspiring and I can see how the Lord prompted some of Lincoln's courage and generosity, but I don't know that any such prediction would automatically be fulfilled.
