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Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

Maninthemiddle

Active Member
The Trinity refers to the Christian doctrine that God exists as three distinct but inseparable persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

The relationship between Jesus as the Son of God and his connection to the Father is often a point of confusion for many. The notion that Jesus, as the Son of God, prays to God, and is described as seated at the right hand of the Father.

The theological paradoxes and intricacies inherent in the doctrine of the Trinity—such as the coexistence of distinct persons within a single Godhead, and the dual nature of Jesus (fully divine and fully human)—are part of what make the Trinity a profound and deeply confusing concept.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Jesus was undoubtedly a Jew, born of a Jewish mother, and bought up in the Jewish faith.

There is no mention of the Trinity in the bible or in any of Paul's teachings.

It did not appear as mainstream until the third century.

It was disputed then and it is disputed now, however it is still the teaching of a large majority of Christian Churches.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

To be honest. As far as I can explain it, it is because of the need to explain it. I.e. the "marriage" of religion and philosophy and thus the idea that we need to justify faith and belief.
But that is just me.
 

Coder

Active Member
So you guys are saying you know better than the men closer to the Apostles, the men who drew up the creeds and wrote the theological texts?

The men who read the Bible in its original languages?

You know better?

Hi, I no longer believe in the trinity teaching and I also no longer have to kid myself and others that it was logical to me.

People say that the Bible must be understand in context.

"the men who drew up the creeds and wrote the theological texts?"
They must also be understood in their context. There is is the context:

In the Roman Empire, there were many gods and and sons of gods, both among the Greco-Roman pagan religions as well as the emperors who were ascribed "divinity" and "divi filius", "son of a god". It is also known that the Romans sought common ground among the various religions in the empire. Further evidence of motive is that early Roman Christianity was state religion enacted by force such as destruction and/or conversion of houses of worship.

Based on this, it is not unreasonable to consider that for the needs of unified religion in the Roman Empire ("all things to all people"), Jesus was used as a human-like ‘god’ figure to help a huge population of Greco-Roman pagans convert to Jewish monotheism. The pagans believed in human-like gods. By using a human-like form (Jesus) as an image of the true God, the pagans could transfer their thinking from the pagan gods to the true God. It's a parable. This should not be surprising. In the Roman Church we see a pattern of substitution of a pagan artifact of worship for a Christian one. It's a simple substitution process. We see this in holidays, prayer, statues, and many other aspects. So, the substitution of a human-like image of God, in place of human-like pagan god figure, for adaptation to monotheism, is a normal part of the pattern.

Many Scriptures can be shown that fit the above pattern, and in my experience, this pattern is generally a better explanation for those Scriptures than the traditional one.

If interested, to get a sense, one can look up what the name "Jupiter" means.

None of this has bearing on whether God taught through Jesus. It only has bearing on additional stories that were fabricated about Jesus (based on the above reasoning and related reasoning). This also is not to judge whether the use of these "parables" was right or wrong. The intentions may have been honorable, and one might argue that the resultant religion was an improvement over polytheism. It is also reasonable to consider that a tension existed between the church and that state. I.e. The church may have been pressured into the extent of the theological adaptations. However, the "parables" went too far and the religion wasn't accepted by Jewish people, including the trinity, which they (rightly in my belief) still don't accept.

You may also find this interesting:
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi, I no longer believe in the trinity teaching and I also no longer have to kid myself and others that it was logical to me.

People say that the Bible must be understand in context.

"the men who drew up the creeds and wrote the theological texts?"
They must also be understood in their context. There is is the context:

In the Roman Empire, there were many gods and and sons of gods, both among the Greco-Roman pagan religions as well as the emperors who were ascribed "divinity" and "divi filius", "son of a god". It is also known that the Romans sought common ground among the various religions in the empire. Further evidence of motive is that early Roman Christianity was state religion enacted by force such as destruction and/or conversion of houses of worship.

Based on this, it is not unreasonable to consider that for the needs of unified religion in the Roman Empire ("all things to all people"), Jesus was used as a human-like ‘god’ figure to help a huge population of Greco-Roman pagans convert to Jewish monotheism. The pagans believed in human-like gods. By using a human-like form (Jesus) as an image of the true God, the pagans could transfer their thinking from the pagan gods to the true God. It's a parable. This should not be surprising. In the Roman Church we see a pattern of substitution of a pagan artifact of worship for a Christian one. It's a simple substitution process. We see this in holidays, prayer, statues, and many other aspects. So, the substitution of a human-like image of God, in place of human-like pagan god figure, for adaptation to monotheism, is a normal part of the pattern.

Many Scriptures can be shown that fit the above pattern, and in my experience, this pattern is generally a better explanation for those Scriptures than the traditional one.

If interested, to get a sense, one can look up what the name "Jupiter" means.

None of this has bearing on whether God taught through Jesus. It only has bearing on additional stories that were fabricated about Jesus (based on the above reasoning and related reasoning). This also is not to judge whether the use of these "parables" was right or wrong. The intentions may have been honorable, and one might argue that the resultant religion was an improvement over polytheism. It is also reasonable to consider that a tension existed between the church and that state. I.e. The church may have been pressured into the extent of the theological adaptations. However, the "parables" went too far and the religion wasn't accepted by Jewish people, including the trinity, which they (rightly in my belief) still don't accept.

You may also find this interesting:
Isn't it a " Holy Fraud" in the name of Jesus and or an accusation against him , right?

Regards
 

I Am Hugh

Researcher
So you guys are saying you know better than the men closer to the Apostles, the men who drew up the creeds and wrote the theological texts?

The men who read the Bible in its original languages?

You know better?

Yes.

The early Christians had a difficult time with the trade-guilds in Thyatira, The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible: "Every such guild had its patron god, its feasts, its social occasions which could at times become immoral revels. 'Jezebel' may have argued that . . . These revels need not be condemned since every workman, to make a living, had to join a guild." (Revelation 2:20)

When I first got online in the mid 1990s, I would rarely come across a believer who didn't believe in the apostate teachings of hell and the trinity. The internet was new, and traditional Christians were testing the new waters. Forums like this were much more common. Very quickly though, those traditional Christians realized that the sense of community they had in the church of apostasy couldn't be replicated online with all of the representatives of all the opposing factions. At that time the JWs were being told to stay away from the internet, it was the Devil's. While the Watchtower was quietly working on their own website.

The sense of community is what keeps the church alive. Like the Christians in ancient Thyatira, modern-day believers either have to accept and join in the depravity or leave. In Thyatira true believers left, while the others were able to get into the trade guilds. Traditional apostate Christianity is, in a sense, like ancient Thyatira in that regard. If you want the truth, you go outside of it, if you want community you have to stay there and go along with it.

What is left in forums like this are the outsiders of modern-day Christianity, those who reject the tradition. Skeptics, ironically, can see right through the trinity, as can those not under the influence of the modern-day Jezebel. The whore of Babylon, false religion.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Why should that be relevant?

Presumably a Christian creed is the thoughtful consensus of the core beliefs transmitted by the NT. What rule assures that a 325 C.E. consensus is more correct than 19th century reassessment?
I believe it isn't relevant and I am a Trinity believer having had a nice fresh look at it. I do believe the Athanasian creed is incorrect and was one of the beliefs voted down at the Council of Nicaea.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I believe it isn't relevant and I am a Trinity believer having had a nice fresh look at it. I do believe the Athanasian creed is incorrect and was one of the beliefs voted down at the Council of Nicaea.
Why vote to make everyone believe the same thing? Because Constantine had the illusion that uniform beliefs were necessary for a unified Roman Empire. Everybody believing the same thing is not necessary for unity, and it is tyrannical.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

Because it is an invention* of the Paulines, and has no basis in (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah who was neither a Zionist nor a Judaic-from the lineage of Juda aka Jew, please, right?

Regards
________________
*"Pious Fraud"
I'm so very happy to see that you have begun using "Zionist" instead of "Zionism people." :) The word "Judaic" is an adjective, not a noun, so one would never say "a Judaic." You are correct that the right word is Jew.

A Jew is not limited to the tribe of Judah. The word Jew is derived from the southern KINGDOM of Judah. This country originally had the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levite, and Simeon, but it later incorporated all the other tribes of Israel when they arrived as refugees. IOW, "Jew" refers to any Israelite.
 
I'd argue that it is because the doctrine of the Trinity is not consistent with the Christian Bible.


Because Christian doctrine developed to a large extent under Constantine, and Constantine's cult of Sol Invictus had a triad of deities.

It's almost always Protestants because the tend to hold to the doctrine of Sola Scripture. Catholics hold more to tradition.

It's not that the early Christians failed to grasp Constantine's role, it's that they were not in any position to challenge it.


Times are changing. People in general are moving away from globalism, which is associated with Rome. The term "God" is ambiguous, there's no point in trying to unwrap that one without clear language.


It's always been shaped by the interpretations of the various Christian denominations. Unwrapping it involves looking at the early ideologies that were competing with the Hellenistic view of first century Messianism.


Perhaps people are becoming less invested in tradition.
 
I AM is the name of Elohim. Elohim is not the same as "the only true theos" or to the theos who is the Father.
comparing apples to oranges? tired here

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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ok but what do you think about when God told Moses he would be made by God to be like God or a God to Pharaoh. How do you figure that?
 
So you guys are saying you know better than the men closer to the Apostles, the men who drew up the creeds and wrote the theological texts?

The men who read the Bible in its original languages?

You know better?
If Jesus is not God, then explain . . .

  1. Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically).
  2. Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
  3. Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1, 14)?
  4. Why is the phrase “Call upon the name of the LORD” (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT and translated into Greek in the LXX as “Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, “KURIOS”) applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
  5. Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was ” . . . calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God.” (John 5:18)?
  6. What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God (John 8:58)?
  7. How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?
  8. How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
  9. How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
  10. How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
  11. How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
  12. How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
  13. How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
  14. How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
  15. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
  16. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and “God” also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?
  17. How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
  18. How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
  19. How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
  20. Why was Jesus worshipped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
  21. In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
  22. Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, “I AM” for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
  23. Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
  24. Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
  25. Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?
 
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