Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[IndigoChild5559]

If Jesus is not God, then explain . . .

1. Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically).
2. Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
3. Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1, 14)?
4. Why is the phrase “Call upon the name of the LORD” (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT and translated into Greek in the LXX as “Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, “KURIOS”) applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
5. Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was ” . . . calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God.” (John 5:18)?
6. What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God (John 8:58)?
7. How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?
8. How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
9. How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
10. How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
11. How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
12. How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
13. How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
14. How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
15. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
16. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and “God” also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?
17. How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
18. How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
19. How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
20. Why was Jesus worshipped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
21. In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
22. Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, “I AM” for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
23. Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
24. Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
25. Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?

Rather than flooding the room, which is what you did (the purpose of flooding is to so overwhelm the other that they cannot reply), I will offer just four verses.

How can Jesus, who was a man, be God, if God is not a man?
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 He is not a man.
Job 9:32 He is not a man.
Hosea 11:9 I am God, and not a man

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeap, I'm sure Jesus is turning over in his grave that people worship him.

Jesus is not in the grave anymore.

 

[Brian2]

Rather than flooding the room, which is what you did (the purpose of flooding is to so overwhelm the other that they cannot reply), I will offer just four verses.

How can Jesus, who was a man, be God, if God is not a man?
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 He is not a man.
Job 9:32 He is not a man.
Hosea 11:9 I am God, and not a man

Each of those 4 needs to be seen in context. They are not declarations about not being a man, they are declarations about not being a liar and being double minded like men, and that He is no on the same level as Job, that Job could take Him to court, and that He is able to control Himself and His anger unlike men.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Each of those 4 needs to be seen in context.

They are declarations about the nature of God. Unlike pagan deities, God is not part of nature, nor does he incarnate to become part of nature. He does not become a tree or a rock or an insect or a man. Can he? Sure. Will he? No, because that would go against his nature. It's like asking Can God sin? Sure. Will he? No.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

That article uses what in any other field to be very poor logic. As it uses the bible to prove itself.
The fact remains that the early Christians had neither the bible nor the concept of the trinity. Nor was the Trinity taught by jesus or any of the disciples.
The Bible was not assembled from gathered writings, till the late 4th century. While the concept of the Trinity was proposed in nicaea in 325

 

[learner Daniel]

Rather
Job 9:32 He is not a man.
Hosea 11:9 I am God, and not a man

Numbers 23:19
Remember, the verse says, “God IS not a man…” Second, the verse says that “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent.” In other words, the verse is dealing with the issue that God does not lie, nor does he repent (of his sins). The verse isn’t denying that the Word becomes incarnate later on. Instead, it is saying that God is not like people because he does not lie, nor does he need to repent from sin. Can Jesus be God if God is not a man (Numbers 23:19)?

1 Samuel 15:29 same answer as Numbers 23:19

Job 9:32
In this verse, Job expresses his frustration at the difference between himself and God, and his inability to argue his case before God as he would with another human. Job recognizes that God is not a human judge who he could meet in court to defend himself.

Dr. Constable's Expository Notes
The unfairness of God 9:25-35

In short, Job believed it was useless for him to try to prove himself upright since God seemed determined to punish him.

The Book of Job uses legal terms and metaphors extensively in the sections that deal with Job’s disputes with God. Job had previously served as a judge in his town (Job 29:7-17), and he wanted justice (Heb. mispat) from God. [Note: See Sylvia H. Scholnick, "The Meaning of Mispat in the Book of Job," Journal of Biblical Literature 101 (1982):521-29.] Therefore he used legal terminology frequently in his dialogues. These legal metaphors are one of the key features of the book since they help us identify its purpose. [Note: Parsons, pp. 147-50.]

Job’s frustration, expressed in Job 9:32-33, is understandable since God was both his legal adversary and his judge. This accounts for his urgent yet hopeless cry for a neutral party (mediator, umpire) to arbitrate a settlement between himself and God. In the ancient Near East this arbitrator was a judge whose verdict was more often a settlement proposal that the litigants could either accept or reject (cf. Job 13:7-12; Job 16:18-21. [Note: Ibid., p. 148. See Wiersbe, p. 25.] Job had no hope of receiving justice from God-only mercy (Job 9:34). He felt that since God was so great, he could not vindicate himself.

"This is the persistent problem, the real problem of the book: not the problem of suffering, to be solved intellectually by supplying a satisfactory answer which explains why it happened; but the attainment of a right relationship with God which makes existence in suffering holy and acceptable." [Note: Andersen, p. 151. Cf. 4:17; 9:2, 3, 14. See also Smick, "Job," p. 912.]

"’I am not like that in myself’ (Job 9:35) means ’that is not the way it is with regard to my case.’" [Note: Zuck, Job, p. 50.]

Job 9:32 - Verse-by-Verse Bible Commentary - StudyLight.org

Job 9:32 - 'For He is not a man, as I am, that I may answer Him— That we may go to court together! on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

Job 9:32 - Verse-by-Verse Bible Commentary - StudyLight.org

Job 9:32 - 'For He is not a man, as I am, that I may answer Him— That we may go to court together! on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

Hosea 11:9
CEV
Israel, I won't lose my temper and destroy you again. I am the Holy God— not merely some human, and I won't stay angry.

Hosea 11:9 is a verse in the Bible that demonstrates God's compassion and desire for restoration over judgment. Here are some commentaries on the meaning of Hosea 11:9:
God's compassion
God's compassion and love for his people are demonstrated in Hosea 11:9, even when his people are turning away from him and committing immoral acts. God's love is shown in his desire to restore his people, rather than annihilate them.
God's character
Hosea 11:9 shows that God is "God and not man," meaning he can reflect on situations with a sense of justice and compassion.
Hope for reconciliation
The tension between judgment and mercy in Hosea 11:9 offers hope for reconciliation with God, regardless of one's failings.
Divine love
Hosea 11:9 shows that divine love is beyond human understanding. God's questions in the verse challenge the metaphors used in the first seven verses of the poem.
God as a parent
Some commentators say that the metaphor of a parent and a toddler in Hosea 11:9 is one of the earliest images of God as a mother.
God's desire to be with his people
Hosea 11:9 helps show that God's willingness to suffer on behalf of his people is not a new development, but rather a fundamental part of who he is.

None of your proof texts says God will not incarnate in Jesus.

 

[learner Daniel]

That article uses what in any other field to be very poor logic. As it uses the bible to prove itself.
The fact remains that the early Christians had neither the bible nor the concept of the trinity. Nor was the Trinity taught by jesus or any of the disciples.
The Bible was not assembled from gathered writings, till the late 4th century. While the concept of the Trinity was proposed in nicaea in 325

It is not using the bible to prove itself. It is demonstrating that the doctrine of the Trinity is Biblical, all the elements are in scripture.

 

[learner Daniel]

That article uses what in any other field to be very poor logic. As it uses the bible to prove itself.
The fact remains that the early Christians had neither the bible nor the concept of the trinity. Nor was the Trinity taught by jesus or any of the disciples.
The Bible was not assembled from gathered writings, till the late 4th century. While the concept of the Trinity was proposed in nicaea in 325

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

What the Early Church Believed: The Divinity of Christ

The Divinity of Christ was believed by Christians from the begining. This is shown again and again in the Bible and the writings of the early Christians.

www.catholic.com

Did the early church affirm Jesus’ deity?

Did the early church believe in the deity of Christ? Ask your average Muslim, Unitarian, Jehovah’s Witness, or just about any non-Christian skeptic who has read (or watched) The Da Vinci Code…

thecripplegate.com

Delphi Forums Login

forums.delphiforums.com

Dope Quotations from the Early Church Fathers on the Deity of Christ

A lovely selection of quotations from the 2nd and 3rd centuries where Church Fathers expound their belief that Jesus is God.

burnseyeview.org

The Early Church Fathers on Jesus

When the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) come to your door, if you get into a conversation with them on who Jesus is, you can expect them to leave a tract with you titled, Should You Believe in the…

www.bethinking.org

 

[learner Daniel]

That article uses what in any other field to be very poor logic. As it uses the bible to prove itself.
The fact remains that the early Christians had neither the bible nor the concept of the trinity. Nor was the Trinity taught by jesus or any of the disciples.
The Bible was not assembled from gathered writings, till the late 4th century. While the concept of the Trinity was proposed in nicaea in 325

Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides
“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian the Syrian
“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito of Sardis
“The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

 

[learner Daniel]

Irenaeus
“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

“Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth” (ibid., 3:19:1).

Clement of Alexandria
“The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

“Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son” (ibid., 10:110:1).

 

[learner Daniel]

Tertullian
“The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born” (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

Origen
“Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

Hippolytus
“Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

“For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new” (ibid., 10:34).

Novatian
“If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is.” (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]” (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Numbers 23:19
Remember, the verse says, “God IS not a man…” Second, the verse says that “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent.” In other words, the verse is dealing with the issue that God does not lie,

Irrelevant. The REASON God does not lie or repent is because HE IS NOT A MAN. It is not his nature. All of your rebuttals are irrelevant for the identical reason: noting the context and reason WHY God is not a man simply doesn't take away the truth that he is not a man.

I'm sure you really thought you could get around this, but oh well.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

None of your proof texts says God will not incarnate in Jesus.

There again bad logic, you can not prove a positive with a negative.

Your other posts, to me, contained quotations and anecdotes mainly from the old testament and ancients that again a prove nothing, at most they give opinion. Which itself is not proof.

The compiling of the Christian bible did not take place till after Nicaea when the trinity doctrine was imposed. Only books that did not discredit the doctrine were eventually selected.

 

[Brian2]

They are declarations about the nature of God. Unlike pagan deities, God is not part of nature, nor does he incarnate to become part of nature. He does not become a tree or a rock or an insect or a man. Can he? Sure. Will he? No, because that would go against his nature. It's like asking Can God sin? Sure. Will he? No.

My understanding is that God has a Son who comes from God and is the same nature as God His Father. It is this Son who was sent to be man, have 2 natures, a spirit nature that was not created and comes from His Father and a created material human nature.
All life comes from God, our spirit comes from God, but in the case of Jesus, His spirit was alive with God from eternity.

 

[metis]

Tertullian
“The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born” (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

Origen
“Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

Hippolytus
“Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

“For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new” (ibid., 10:34).

Novatian
“If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is.” (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]” (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Let me recommend that you keep responses short and to the point, otherwise they tend to get ignored.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

My understanding is that God has a Son who comes from God and is the same nature as God His Father. It is this Son who was sent to be man, have 2 natures, a spirit nature that was not created and comes from His Father and a created material human nature.
All life comes from God, our spirit comes from God, but in the case of Jesus, His spirit was alive with God from eternity.

You are missing the point. I'm not here to convince you to believe otherwise -- if you want to believe Jesus is God, more power to you. My point here is only that this belief contradicts what is taught in the Tanakh (what Christians call the Old Testament).

On four separate occasions, the Tanakh either teaches that the nature of God is that he is not a man, or assumes that God is not a man in order to make another point. Four times.

The distinction of God from creation is one of the hallmarks of Judaism. It's what separates us from the pagan faiths. For us, God is not anything in nature, does not become anything in nature, should not even be represented in art by anything in nature. He is not a rock, or tree, or man, or sun, or storm.... Just as it is offensive to us to say that Caesar is god or Pharaoh is god, it is no different to say that Jesus is god.

 

[Kenny]

You are missing the point. I'm not here to convince you to believe otherwise -- if you want to believe Jesus is God, more power to you. My point here is only that this belief contradicts what is taught in the Tanakh (what Christians call the Old Testament).

I understand what you are saying. But to say that it contradicts what is in the TaNaKh is to say that it wasn’t preached by the Messianic Jews of Jesus times. Apparently they didn't agree with you as do the Messianic Jews of today.

On four separate occasions, the Tanakh either teaches that the nature of God is that he is not a man, or assumes that God is not a man in order to make another point. Four times.

That is true. Of course, that was before He came in the form of man. That being said, there are also scriptures that speak of Him coming as a man.

The distinction of God from creation is one of the hallmarks of Judaism. It's what separates us from the pagan faiths. For us, God is not anything in nature, does not become anything in nature, should not even be represented in art by anything in nature. He is not a rock, or tree, or man, or sun, or storm.... Just as it is offensive to us to say that Caesar is god or Pharaoh is god, it is no different to say that Jesus is god.

And yet, God being God, is there anything impossible for Him? Of course, it is impossible for Him to lie, but that isn’t the subject. Many Jews aren’t offended by what they see in the TaNaKh even as it is revealed in the NT

 

[InChrist]

Rather than flooding the room, which is what you did (the purpose of flooding is to so overwhelm the other that they cannot reply), I will offer just four verses.

How can Jesus, who was a man, be God, if God is not a man?
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 He is not a man.
Job 9:32 He is not a man.
Hosea 11:9 I am God, and not a man

Jesus can be God … because He was NOT initially a man or the son of a man, just as those verses state. He was first God the Son eternally. I don’t see anything in the Bible which indicates that God cannot take on human form if He so chooses, which the scriptures show He did so for our salvation. He “became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). Since He became flesh then it means He was previously something else first; Spirit/God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I understand what you are saying. But to say that it contradicts what is in the TaNaKh is to say that it wasn’t preached by the Messianic Jews of Jesus times.

The Nazarenes, which were a sect of Judaism, did not believe Jesus was God.

Apparently they didn't agree with you as do the Messianic Jews of today.

Correct. Messianic Jews today are Christians, with all the trappings and trimmings, including Trinitarianism. They overlook the Tanakh in favor of the New Testament no differently than any other Christian.

That is true. Of course, that was before He came in the form of man. That being said, there are also scriptures that speak of Him coming as a man.

There zero verses in the Tanakh that speak of God "coming as a man." And that would contradict God's nature. CAN God incarnate as a man? Yes. Will he? No, because it is contrary to his nature, just as he is not going incarnate as this rock or that tree.

Many Jews aren’t offended by what they see in the TaNaKh even as it is revealed in the NT

Many? Only 2% of American Jews are Christians.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus can be God … because He was NOT initially a man or the son of a man, just as those verses state. He was first God the Son eternally. I don’t see anything in the Bible which indicates that God cannot take on human form if He so chooses, which the scriptures show He did so for our salvation. He “became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). Since He became flesh then it means He was previously something else first; Spirit/God.

Again, the four verses I quoted describe the Nature of God, which does not change. CAN God incarnate? Yes. Will he? No, because that would violate his nature. It's the same as asking if God can sin. Can he? Yes. Will he? No, because that is contrary to his nature.