Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Kenny]

All of these converts lived in Jerusalem, not just the priests.

I think we lost the train of thought here. My fault. I hadn’t realized we changed subjects and my statement was in reference to “ The idea that Jesus was God was not present at all in the Jewish population in Jerusalem. "

I'm going to regret asking. What does the book of Isaiah have to do with the Nazarenes?

Nothing… I was talking about God manifesting in the body of a man.

 

[metis]

Yes, many. Many tens of thousands in the inception and more after

And if they don't, are there consequences?

 

[metis]

The idea that Jesus was God was not present at all in the Jewish population in Jerusalem.

Frankly, I strongly tend to believe that they didn't believe as such because it's so alien to what's in the Tanakh as no person is ever depicted as being God or the equivalent of God within it. I tend to think it was likely Paul who put forth that concept as being symbolic of Jesus being the "sacrificial lamb". When Gentiles eventually dominated the early Church, it was easier for them to believe that Jesus and God are one and the same. However, even that wasn't a slam-dunk at first.

 

[Kenny]

And if they don't, are there consequences?

The last thing I ever do is sit on the judgement seat that is only reserved for God. It is above my pay-grade.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know about the one who created the heavens and the earth. What is the totality of the legal and effectual working of the Cross? Only God knows.

So I rely on what I do know… preach the good news Gospel of Jesus Christ. For the one who knows he needs a doctor, he will come and drink of the wells of eternal life as did the woman at the well and the Samaritans that he preached to.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Frankly, I strongly tend to believe that they didn't believe as such because it's so alien to what's in the Tanakh as no person is ever depicted as being God or the equivalent of God within it. I tend to think it was likely Paul who put forth that concept as being symbolic of Jesus being the "sacrificial lamb". When Gentiles eventually dominated the early Church, it was easier for them to believe that Jesus and God are one and the same. However, even that wasn't a slam-dunk at first.

Very well said.

I have a question for you, my friend, not to argue but just because I'm curious. Everyone knows you are a devout Catholic, but there are things about your church that, well, you kind of let slide. When it comes to the deity of Jesus, is that something you have come to believe? And would you say you are a Trinitarian? (Not quite the same thing.) Or is this one of those things that you brush off?

 

[Martin]

Saying Jesus is God makes him a more impressive figure?

 

[amazing grace]

Saying Jesus is God makes him a more impressive figure?

I think it makes him LESS impressive. I think he is more impressive in light of all that he accomplished being fully human.

 

[Martin]

While we're talking about the Trinity, what's the origin of the Holy Spirit aspect?

 

[amazing grace]

While we're talking about the Trinity, what's the origin of the Holy Spirit aspect?

The origin (beginning) of the Holy Spirit??? or what we believe the Holy Spirit to be?

 

[Brian2]

I think it makes him LESS impressive. I think he is more impressive in light of all that he accomplished being fully human.

I think ONLY human is what you should be saying.
Even in Trinity theology He is fully human.
He would be very impressive if He remained sinless while being ONLY human.
It would be a puzzle if He was only human but was sinless.
Jesus said that only God is good, but if Jesus was good what does that make Him?

The thing about it has nothing to do with being impressive or not. A fully human Jesus who also is fully God came to be obedient to His Father and to be sinless and even suffer and die to bear our sins (as in Isa 53). It shows what God is willing to do to restore humans to what they should be and save them from eternal death. It has nothing to do with impressing anyone, it was done out of love.

 

[Martin]

The origin (beginning) of the Holy Spirit??? or what we believe the Holy Spirit to be?

I mean what is the belief based on? Is it in the Bible?

 

[amazing grace]

I think it makes him LESS impressive. I think he is more impressive in light of all that he accomplished being fully human.

I think ONLY human is what you should be saying.
Even in Trinity theology He is fully human.
He would be very impressive if He remained sinless while being ONLY human.
It would be a puzzle if He was only human but was sinless.
Jesus said that only God is good, but if Jesus was good what does that make Him?

Nope, in Trinity theology he is fully human/fully God so what is impressive is that he accomplished what he did being a human being.

He was a human being who by the power of God, his Father, remained sinless.

Yes, Jesus said "No one is good except God alone." showing us that he was NOT God in the flesh because if he was God, then his answer makes no sense. Basically, he would be saying there is no one good but God---and that's me." Jesus was good ONLY because of God, his Father.
Jesus was giving credit of his goodness which this ruler saw exhibited in him to the one from which goodness originated - God, his Father.

The thing about it has nothing to do with being impressive or not. A fully human Jesus who also is fully God came to be obedient to His Father and to be sinless and even suffer and die to bear our sins (as in Isa 53). It shows what God is willing to do to restore humans to what they should be and save them from eternal death. It has nothing to do with impressing anyone, it was done out of love.

I was responding to Post #1386 -

Saying Jesus is God makes him a more impressive figure?

Do you even listen to what you are saying? "A fully human Jesus who also is fully God came to be obedient to His Father". . . . if Jesus is fully God and God is his Father then was Jesus being obedient to himself, i.e. God in the flesh?

Jesus remained sinless because of his obedience to his Father who was the ONLY TRUE GOD.

Yes, Jesus suffered and died to bear our sins ---- which could only be accomplished if he was truly a human being, an immortal being and not God clothed in flesh because God immortal.

Yes, God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son to reconcile humans to himself and give them eternal life.

 

[IamYourYahaweh]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

Why is the trinity at all important. It's lame. I dont think Jesus is God, I don't think anybody worships christ so I don't need the trinity because it's pushing blasphemy

 

[metis]

The last thing I ever do is sit on the judgement seat that is only reserved for God. It is above my pay-grade.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know about the one who created the heavens and the earth. What is the totality of the legal and effectual working of the Cross? Only God knows.

So I rely on what I do know… preach the good news Gospel of Jesus Christ. For the one who knows he needs a doctor, he will come and drink of the wells of eternal life as did the woman at the well and the Samaritans that he preached to.

Good response, but imo there needs to be more thought on what about those who came before Jesus and/or never heard of him? Probably most people in most religions think they're right, but can they all be right?

To me, much like the universe itself, it's undoubtedly far more complicated than we think. Assuming God created all, how could we even begin to understand such vastness?

So, I prefer to keep it simple: "love one another", even though it is often a challenge for me.

 

[metis]

I have a question for you, my friend, not to argue but just because I'm curious. Everyone knows you are a devout Catholic, but there are things about your church that, well, you kind of let slide.

I would not call myself "devout", nor do I let the great many faults of the Church or myself slide. As long as it's run by humans, there's going to be mistakes made, accidental or intentional, and some have been nasty!

When it comes to the deity of Jesus, is that something you have come to believe?

No, and my "beliefs" are more along the line of Spinoza, who also felt that Jesus' teaching of "love one another" was paramount for us regardless of religion, agnosticism, or atheism.

And would you say you are a Trinitarian?

Definitely not.

When I rejoined the church 6 years ago, I told the priest that because of my science orientation I will always question things, but what I could do is to help out at the parish, especially helping out with teaching potential coverts and working with families in need. He said he understood and could accept that. so...

Shalom back at ya, my friend, and thanks for asking.

BTW, I still attend synagogue occasionally.

 

[Muffled]

Cool which scripture are you studying in the original language that competed with Yahweh? Because Professor Stavrakopoulou studies this and has an entire book demonstrating Yahweh is exactly the same. In fact all of the stories seem to have earlier version in older cultures with different gods.

Francesca Stavrakopoulou PhD
9:30
The idea that the Israelite religion was extraordinary and different from religions of surrounding religions and cultures and this deity is somehow different and extraordinary and so this deity is wholly unlike all other deities in Southeast Asia. Historically this is not the case. Nothing unusual or extraordinary about Yahweh.



Francesca Stavrakopoulou Discusses Her Latest Book,

3:15 Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatomy" Francesca explains the Hebrew text is very explicit in this.

I believe He is not the same.