Why Sunday as Sabbath?

[d.n.irvin]

The Bible clearly interperts itself- An I accept any challenges form any one

 

[SoyLeche]

The Bible clearly interperts itself- An I accept any challenges form any one

Is the challenge to see how many spelling mistakes one can make in a single post? I don't think I can top that.

(mods, feel free to delete. I just couldn't help myself).

 

[d.n.irvin]

For instance lets take, Worship - The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object- The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed- To perform an act of worship(dictionary.com)

John 14:15 If you love me keep my commandments

The Bible(OLD & NEW testaments)interperts itself on many subjects, but for the purpopses of this discussion, lets talk about how it pertains to Worship(love). The Bible tells us that, it matters to God how we Worship(love) Him, the Bible also tells us how to study and interpret the Bible.

2 Timothy 14:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

I once read a post that said something like "If God wanted us to keep the Sabbath it would be all over the Bible"

Keeping the Sabbath is a part of how we Worship(love) or express our love for God, and the Bible is clear from Genesis to Revelation on how we are to Worship God, and what God accepts as Worship.

Friends the question of Worship or why God is worthy of Worship is a part of the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan and has it's origins in Heaven.

Here is what Isaiah has to say about lucifer and him wanting to be Worshiped.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


Now starting in Genisis we see Worship come into play from the very beginning of the human race. Adam and Eve had fallen, they are out of the garden of eden; according to the Bible, the first two sons of Adam, where tested in their obedience and loyalty to God through Worship.

Genesis 4
1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him .


Now, I'm going to stop right here, I would like for everyone to review the information presented, If I have spoken my own words, or echoed the Bible.

*** Can we agree so far that Worship was important to God from the beginning of Mankind? yes or no


*** Can we see the Bible interpreting itself? yes or no


***Where Adam & Eve and their children Jews, Catholics, Protestants or Muslims?

Since we all agree God made the Sabbath,

***Do you think God instructed Adam and Eve, Cain And Abel about keeping the 7th day Sabbath? yes or no

***Was it ok for Cain to kill his brother? yes or no

***Remember the ten commandments were not given yet

 

[wmam]

So, do you think that the Council at Jerusalem was inspired by God and, hence, made the correct decisions?

Inspired? Not sure. Correct? Yes as pertaining to law. Only a gentile that was born in the house of a Hebrew or that was bought by a Hebrew must be circumcised as to the law. But one must remember that no one that has not recieved the circumcision will enter into the Kingdom so at some point those that believe which wish to enter into the Kingdom will must be made circumsised.

If, however, you do agree that the Council was inspired, then would you mind explaining to me why you insist that Christians of Gentile stock adhere to the law given to Israel, a law that they were never expected to adhere to, in direct contradiction of the ruling of said Council?

I do not anything but the Word insist what is written...........

The law of circumcision on a gentile/heathen convert is not required unless such is wishing to enter the Kingdom.

If you look to Acts 15, you will see it quite clearly stated that Gentiles who converted would not fall under Jewish law but needed only to observe a subset (I would point this out, as not all of them are mentioned) of the Noahide laws. Sabbath observance is not mentioned and nor is it, indeed, one of the Noahide laws at all. It was a law given to the Jews alone and hence is only binding upon them. I am not a Jew nor of Jewish stock, so why should I feel compelled to adhere to a Jewish law made superfluous in any case by the death and resurrection of the Incarnate Son of God?

James

James.....I see what you mean now and have to point out that the reason that not all of the so called Noahide laws are listed are because the laws that are pertain only to cleanliness or rather sanctification laws as to keeping yourself clean before the Most High when you make your presentations. These same laws are also adhered to by the Hebrew as well. Also the Shabbat laws as well as so many, many others were placed on all that believed and accepted the Covenant as well as the stranger that sojourned with them. Remember that YAH is no respecter of persons as is written that one law for all. The Hebrew and the stranger. I do not believe that the death of the Messiah in no way made the laws of sanctification nor the laws of morality null and void but only put aside for a time those sacrificial laws which in turn put aside the Temple and Priest laws until such time as is written that they will be reinstated.

 

[wmam]

The point I'm making is that Jesus says the commandments are 1) Love God, 2) Love neighbor. All other Law, as well as the prophets hang upon these two commandments. Since murder, theft and incest do not exemplify love, but selfishness, your point is not cogent.

1) To love Elohim is to do His Commandments…………

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2) To love ones neighbor would be to do as the law has stated which pertains to how we are to treat one another.

We still have the law to teach us as to how we live and treat one another as well as how the Most High ask that we treat Him. I say ask because He has given us free will to either do His will or not.

So, you're now agreeing with my point above? You're saying that the Law of God is love, and not a Pharisaical set of "Man's rules?" And that, when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, he was acting out of "God's Law" and not "Man's rules?"

First you said.........

In fact, he was a rabbi...and he broke the Sabbath laws.

Then I asked.........

Did He now? Where? Whose laws are we speaking of? The Most High's or man's?

As far as the law of the Most High being love........ Yes I agree. For what Father would give His son a command that wouldn't be in love. To protect and nurture as well as help grow.

The question still stands. By whose law did He break the Shabbat laws by which you stated?

If "Man's rules" are so unimportant, why did Jesus give the Church power to forgive and bind sins? "Man's rules" are our interpretations of "God's Law," which is love. It appears that you're waffling on the issue. You insist upon a strict keeping of the Law in the Bible, yet you ask me which are which.

I for one am not in any way waffling on any issue. If I find that I am incorrect then I will admit to it. I only care for truth and have yet to find much here.........

The Messiah did not of Himself at that point and time give power to anyone to do anything. He said Himself that he did nothing of Himself but that which dwell in Him.

Where is it that the so called church has these powers? Please show scripture. I must have missed something.

You're right to say that Christianity was made by humanity. Jesus was fully human, and so were his disciples. What you're forgetting is that Jesus was also fully divine, and by his grace, his disciples are made new and live in a state of righteousness, in agreement with God. The Church has the mind of Christ in them, because we are the Body of Christ.

Well the Messiah was gone and all the disciples were dead before anyone used the name "christian" and it came by way of those that hated or dispised those that accepted such doctrine. There was plenty of other pagan rituals and observances which was absorbed by the so called church as it grew from many different heathen nations in order to grow. The Messiah was in no way divine. There is only one that is Divine and that be the Most High. The Messiah has no grace to give. Only the Most High gives grace and the disciples are dead and buried and will not arise until the Messiah returns. The so called church doesn't have the mind of the Anointed but rather the mind of its true Father which is Helel. Look at what has been done over past 2,000 years in the name of this church. The true body of the Aninted would never do or allow such nasty abominations to be done and continue to be done.

That Body has seen fit to embrace cultures and peoples other than Jews and Judaism. There's nothing wrong with that.

No....... nothing wrong with that. Salvation is for all the sons of Adam but through the Hebrew first. I speak of the true Body though.

I believe that some folks "don't have it right." But I don't tell them that they're not part of the "true Church." No one has all the answers but God. We all live together in our humanness, with all our different understandings. But that reality does not mean that there is a plurality of Churches.

I believe that it does.......... one right and one evil. One follows YAH and the other Helel.

This is all completely beside the point. The point I was making was that one cannot insist that all the Law be kept, when that one does not "keep the whole Law" himself.

Well......... I agree. One cannot and should not be following sacrificial laws after the death of the Messiah and to that end then there is no need for the laws of the temple or those pertaining to the priest. I would have to say that the rest of the law is still very much in force for those that wish to accept it. Again its the free will thingy.

No, that wouldn't be keeping the Law in love.

So what if you had sex with a 9 year old that consented and you both loved each other?

Jesus, in going to the cross, demonstrated a selfless love. Jesus asks us to follow him. Therefore, we keep the Law by similarly demonstrating a selfless love (which is the summation of the Law) -- not in (as you say) "following the laws of Men."

To do the law is to love Elohim. Not to do is just the opposite.

 

[wmam]

Maybe I missed the point you were attempting to make. I thought you wanted to know if I thought that the Bible interpreted itself, which it clearly does not.

I disagree with you but hey....... I'm sure we will both get over it.

Let's be honest. Of course it was. It is not within the scope of your expertise to determine what "I think I know."

Now you calling me a liar? I was honest when I said "I was only curious as to what you think you know." And I can by what I know I know as a guide to show that we differ when it comes to what you think you know. LOL

 

[wmam]

For instance

LOL........... If I could give you more frubals I would but this forum is so bias when it comes to truth in giving to those that truly deserve it.

 

[sojourner]

*** Can we agree so far that Worship was important to God from the beginning of Mankind? yes or no

From the beginning? No.

*** Can we see the Bible interpreting itself? yes or no

Interpretation is a tool of reading. In order for the Bible to interpret itself, it would have to read itself. Sounds a little Harry Potteresque to me...

***Where Adam & Eve and their children Jews, Catholics, Protestants or Muslims?

None of the above. They may have been pre-Babylonian...

***Do you think God instructed Adam and Eve, Cain And Abel about keeping the 7th day Sabbath? yes or no

since the observance of the Sabbath is a much later Jewish construct...no.

***Was it ok for Cain to kill his brother? yes or no

No. God punished Cain by having him shunned from the community and the land.

Nice little test, but what does it prove, other than the fact that you interpret scripture differently than others?

 

[sojourner]

We still have the law to teach us as to how we live and treat one another as well as how the Most High ask that we treat Him. I say ask because He has given us free will to either do His will or not.

But the impetus for keeping the Law is a selfless act, done out of love, not from thinking that "keeping the Law" will win us a ticket to heaven.

God's grace is an act of God -- not humanity. God acts, we respond to that act by living into God's will.

The Messiah did not of Himself at that point and time give power to anyone to do anything. He said Himself that he did nothing of Himself but that which dwell in Him.

Where is it that the so called church has these powers? Please show scripture. I must have missed something.

Jesus gave them the keys to the kingdom of heaven. They had the power to either bind or loose. They had the power to heal and to exorcise demons.

Well the Messiah was gone and all the disciples were dead before anyone used the name "christian" and it came by way of those that hated or dispised those that accepted such doctrine.

So? The Church is the Church, no matter what it is called.

The Messiah was in no way divine.

OK. We violently disagree here.

The so called church doesn't have the mind of the Anointed but rather the mind of its true Father which is Helel.

Uh huh...and I"ll bet you have some lovely swampland in Arizona that you'd be willing to sell me...

I speak of the true Body though.

In other words..."The Church."

I believe that it does.......... one right and one evil. One follows YAH and the other Helel.

Believing doesn't make it Truth.

So what if you had sex with a 9 year old that consented and you both loved each other?

A 9-year-old cannot, by definition, consent to that sort of activity. Therefore, any attempt to engage such 9-year-old in such activities is sin, because it is inherently a selfish act. Love does not coerce.

And I can by what I know I know as a guide to show that we differ when it comes to what you think you know.

You know you know, but I only think I know? That's hubris writ large...(BTW, it's the meek that shall inherit the earth...)

 

[wmam]

But the impetus for keeping the Law is a selfless act, done out of love, not from thinking that "keeping the Law" will win us a ticket to heaven.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

God's grace is an act of God -- not humanity. God acts, we respond to that act by living into God's will.

And His will is that we obey and do His commandments.

Jesus gave them the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

No. He gave Peter.

They had the power to either bind or loose.

No. Peter did.

They had the power to heal and to exorcise demons.

The Disciples did yes.

So? The Church is the Church, no matter what it is called.

No. I disagree.

OK. We violently disagree here.

Amein!

Uh huh...and I"ll bet you have some lovely swampland in Arizona that you'd be willing to sell me...

Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist, nor a brain surgeon, to see the works of various "church" leaders have nothing to do with the true Body/Assembly of the Anointed. Such lost sheep which follow after the whims of man and not the will of the Most High.

In other words..."The Church."

Again............. "NO"

Believing doesn't make it Truth.

I agree.......

But one only needs to look at the world today and see the works of those that profess truth to see if it be..... well..... The Messiah said it better than I ever could.......

Joh 7:16 Yahshua answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of Elohim, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

A 9-year-old cannot, by definition, consent to that sort of activity. Therefore, any attempt to engage such 9-year-old in such activities is sin, because it is inherently a selfish act. Love does not coerce.

Whose definition of the age of consent are we using? Where in scripture is this found?

You know you know, but I only think I know? That's hubris writ large...(BTW, it's the meek that shall inherit the earth...)

Oh grow-up...... I was only picking with you. Not to un-like your dig on me selling you swamp land. LOL


</IMG>

 

[[email protected]]

Someone really should have told Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that. They sure messed up.

No they did not mess up. They knew that Jesus was resurrected before the first day of the week and was no longer in the tomb on Sunday morning. It is from their accounts that an objective reader can determine that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights and was resurrected before the first day of the week, by late Sabbath afternoon at the latest.

Someone mentioned that the early Church kept the seventh-day Sabbath because they were Jews. Paul kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, and though he was a Jew he was the apostle to the gentiles, and he taught the gentiles to keep the Sabbath not Sunday. Keeping the Sabbath is a command from God, part of the ten commandments, and part of the law of God. Paul would not have taught the gentiles that it was ok to break the Sabbath command any more than he would have taught them that it is ok to commit adultery or murder.

 

[Snowbear]

Paul would not have taught the gentiles that it was ok to break the Sabbath command any more than he would have taught them that it is ok to commit adultery or murder.

Really? Then why did he admonish the Galatian Christians (both gentiles and Jews who had 'converted' to Christianity) who were being influenced by the so-called 'Jude-izers' that the Gospel has freed them from the law, which included the 'observance of days, months, times and years?'

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, coming into being out of a woman, having come under Law,
5 that He might redeem those under Law, so that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 So that you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.
8 But then, indeed, not knowing God, you served as slaves to those not by nature being gods.
9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you again desire to slave anew?
10 You observe days and months and times and years.
​

 

[wmam]

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, Elohim sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Elohims laws pertaining to sacrifice........

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

.......as is proven here with the word "redeem" because He bought us with His blood in order to take the place of the animals blood which was what covered sins.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, Elohim hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

How did they become sons of Elohim? Not just by faith but by works as well. I would suggest also that the set-apart Spirit will not abode in a vessel that is unclean.

Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of Elohim through the Anointed.

Now if you have done all that is required of you as it is written and are found doing so, and continue, with a pure heart (mind, hearts pump blood.) then you be a son and not merely one working to that status for you have already aquired it. There are many that are still searching and haven't found the truth or have found it and do not see it or won't accept it. In any case their heart, or rather minds, are still to carnal and fleshly to understand and accept truth. Truth is only the unadulterated word of Elohim.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not Elohim, ye did service unto them which by nature are no "gods".

Speaking to them that worshiped pagan deity's by the certain rituals that they used in order to do service unto said diety's

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known Elohim, or rather are known of Elohim, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

As "Emeril" would say............ BAM!!!!!! There it is.........

These people wanted to observe the Most High as they did their pagan deity's. What an abomination. Funny thing is they still do it today with all their rituals and graven images and carvings in all sorts of materials of people and things. They are still those that look into.........

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

When they look into their horoscope's in their daly paper or read into the zodiacs and the like.

Please try to remember that when one reads something that it is best to understand first who is doing the speaking and to what audience they are speaking to. The Galatians were already an assembly that already had many members purified in the correct name but out of free will was looking to do more than what was written for them to do in the worship of the Most High plus also by doing these other things as they had done to their old pagan deity's would help win over other converts within their communities.

 

[Yukimor]

Hold on, I always thought God rested on the last day, Saturday, not The firts, Sunday?!

 

[wmam]

Hold on, I always thought God rested on the last day, Saturday, not The firts, Sunday?!

Thats partially correct. Hard to say using what most define as a day and to what constitutes a week to most. My understanding is from my knowledge of what scripture states as definitions and meanings are. In the beginning there was what? Darkness. So one would need to see that in the beginning of all things whether it be a day, week, month or year that it needs be in darkness. So when it becomes dark at the end of the sixth day, or rather Yom Sheeshee in the Hebrew tongue, begins the seventh day or Shabbat. Shabbat last until dark which would then begin the first day of the week or rather Yom Reshone.

 

[adilrockstar]

I have been praying and studying my Bible, and cannot find one Biblical reference to keep Sunday Holy! It kinda scares me because the 4th Commandment specifically states "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy", How can the only commandment God tell us remember we forget! I say this because most of us go to church on Suday. Can anyone show me where the Bible says Keep Suday Holy ? Or tell me where Sunday worship came from?

Too lazy right now to research it in my Bible, but it sure is cool:

Sunday

Son Day


Get it??:angel2:

 

[wmam]

Too lazy right now to research it in my Bible, but it sure is cool:

Sunday

Son Day


Get it??:angel2:

And with all the research at my finger tips it all revolves back to "Sun's-day".

Sunday, first day of the week. It’s English name is derived from the Latin dies Solis,”Sun’s day,” the name of a pagan Roman holiday [whose name is Sol]. In the early days of Christianity, Sunday began to replace the Sabbath. Roman emperor Constantine the Great designated Sunday [or Sol’s day] as a day of rest. The Encarta® Desk Encyclopedia Copyright © & 1998 Microsoft Corporation

 

[adilrockstar]

So your saying that the Old testament was not written in Hebrew and the New testament was not written in Greek? futher more which translation of KJV do you perfer? and how does your translation view the Sabbath and why do you believe it?

The Bible commands us to keep the Sabath Day Holy. The seventh day we are supposed to rest and give to God.

It became a Roman Law. They replaced a day known as Sunday which was designed out of some type of worship of the Sun, with Sunday now to worship Gods Son.

Get it, kinda cool.

Sunday
Son Day still spelled Sunday

 

[SB Habakuk]

The First day Sunday is the first day used as a recurring day of worship by the ancients!
HOwever the Sabath did not come into place because the earth was created in six days- in fact the earth was created in eight days
The Sabath was in place before the earth existed as it is an eternal thing- what we use as the sabbath on earth is a mere shadow of what is Sabbath in Heaven

 

[Scott1]

Roman emperor Constantine the Great designated Sunday [or Sol’s day] as a day of rest. The Encarta® Desk Encyclopedia Copyright © & 1998 Microsoft Corporation

Just to be clear... I don't doubt that this is true, but FYI, early Christians used Sunday as the Sabbath as early as the year 155.... probably was so since the first generation after the death of Christ.