Why the Bible?

[rstrats]

Mister Emu,

re: "I believe that beliefs are ultimately voluntary [a conscious CHOICE?]..."

re: "...the belief that you need an umbrella for work tomorrow after work is not a conscious choice..."


I couldn’t follow your explanation; the above 2 comments still sound contradictory to me. I wonder if you might elaborate a bit further.

 

[lunamoth]

Of course you would have a choice. However, whether that choice is right depends on how accurate the sign was, which is something you have no way to figure out in advance. Without a rational basis, it's basically a coin flip.

Actually, it's worse than a coin flip: at least with a coin, you can be sure you have one head and one tail. The fact that someone can nail up a sign saying "to God --->" doesn't necessarily mean that there is a God at all.

I guess this makes it like a coin flip, but one where we can't tell if the coin is fair or if it has two "tails".

You are right that the results of the choice depend on the accuracy of the sign, and whether the roads actually take you to different places, etc. But, at least (I think)essentially you agree that you make a choice and it is not a coin flip. Even very complex 'chain reactions' proceed one step at a time, so no matter how complicated the paths that branch out ahead, you take them one choice at a time.

Somewhere along the line there is the choice to investiage what "God" means, and what it means to try to find out. And then there might be the step to decide if trying to find out is desirable to you. And then might be the step to find out what other people and cultures and religions and philosophers have to say about God.

And with each piece of information you find you decide which parts of it fit with your experience and which you reject, and there is the choice of whether you should buy into something wholesale or if it is reasonable to accept part of it but not all. Etc.

So, it all comes down to the same picture, except with different options on the sign depending on where you are long the journey.

I read Holdem as saying he had 'no choice' in choosing whether to believe or not. So, in other words he is not responsible for not believing in God or doing anthing to organize his life around the idea that there is a larger meaning to his existence.

That's a valid way of looking at things, I would see it as a choice and some people would say they have no real choice, with the implication that there is no real responsbility. And of course it works toward the theist too. From Holdem's perspective they have no choice but to believe and neither have a responsibility about it nor credit for it.

I'm just curious about how different people see this, and what they see as the ramifications of their perspective.

I'm sure doppelganger will be along any minute to explain how there is no difference between these two ways of stating it.

 

[Mister Emu]

I couldn’t follow your explanation; the above 2 comments still sound contradictory to me. I wonder if you might elaborate a bit further.

Of course

Beliefs, while they themsleves may not be conscious choices, are based on choices. Thus it is ultimately voluntary...

 

[Heneni]

Of course you would have a choice. However, whether that choice is right depends on how accurate the sign was, which is something you have no way to figure out in advance. Without a rational basis, it's basically a coin flip.

Actually, it's worse than a coin flip: at least with a coin, you can be sure you have one head and one tail. The fact that someone can nail up a sign saying "to God --->" doesn't necessarily mean that there is a God at all.

I guess this makes it like a coin flip, but one where we can't tell if the coin is fair or if it has two "tails".

God does not let his people get on a road alone and then bring them to a crossroads hoping they can make the right choice.

He is their leader. They follow him. He is on the path, not in the way. He's not pointing the way..he is the way. God leads. We follow. Their is no coin to flip, and there is no coincidence where we end up.

The choice ...or the coin flip...is not which road to take...and not which god to follow.

Everybody has a master. There is nobody without a 'head'. There is no sign pointing to god. God is the point.

 

[Falvlun]

You are right that the results of the choice depend on the accuracy of the sign, and whether the roads actually take you to different places, etc. But, at least (I think)essentially you agree that you make a choice and it is not a coin flip. Even very complex 'chain reactions' proceed one step at a time, so no matter how complicated the paths that branch out ahead, you take them one choice at a time.

But isn't it a coin-flip where you will start out in the first place? Does the child born in Afghanistan get to choose to be raised on the Quran? Does the child born in Indiana get to choose to be baptised at birth?

We don't get to choose how we are raised, and often, those are the most formative and informative, years of our lives.

Where we start out is very much a coin toss, and has huge ramifications upon where we will end up.

 

[Falvlun]

God does not let his people get on a road alone and then bring them to a crossroads hoping they can make the right choice.

He is their leader. They follow him. He is on the path, not in the way. He's not pointing the way..he is the way. God leads. We follow. Their is no coin to flip, and there is no coincidence where we end up.

My bolding.

Does this extend to those who are not his people? How are those who are not yet his people expected to find their way in the first place? And if God is the one choosing who to lead and who not to lead, then how is it ever a choice of the individual at all?

 

[lunamoth]

But isn't it a coin-flip where you will start out in the first place? Does the child born in Afghanistan get to choose to be raised on the Quran? Does the child born in Indiana get to choose to be baptised at birth?

We don't get to choose how we are raised, and often, those are the most formative and informative, years of our lives.

Where we start out is very much a coin toss, and has huge ramifications upon where we will end up.

I agree with all of that.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I was just reminding you of your own beliefs on the matter... you seemed a tad... frustrated... what with the: "can't get it into their skulls" bit

Yes I was frustrated, but I shouldn't of said that. I'm sorry if I offended you.

False dichotomy, my beliefs, as far as self-reflection has shown, are not based on anything involuntary, neither are they "complete guesses" more 'informed assumption'

Its easy to say that your beliefs are not based on anything involuntary and at the same time they are not guesses, but I really don't see how this is possible. Why do you believe what you believe? Why did you choose what you chose? If there is absolutely nothing involuntary behind beliefs, then what are they based on? Do you choose what is convincing, compelling, what you want to be true, etc? I think you got it when you said "as far as self-reflection has shown", Maybe through self reflection you cannot see the involuntary things that have shaped your beliefs?

I believe that beliefs are ultimately voluntary...

-I choose to accept my friend's statement that there is a storm coming tomorrow, therefore I believe a storm is coming, therefore I believe that I will need an umbrella tomorrow after work.-

While the belief that you need an umbrella for work tomorrow after work is not a conscious choice, is it ultimately founded on the choice to accept the friend's report on upcoming weather.



Not saying it is quite that simple, but the general idea is captured...

I really do think you have got this backwards here. If my friend phones me and tells me that there is a storm coming, I either accept of reject their statement based on whether or not I believe them. The belief comes before the accepting or rejecting part. I've read the Bible and rejected it because I don't believe its true, not the other way around.

And your right, its not this simple. For example if my friend did phone and told me there was a storm coming, but I did not believe them, I would still bring an umbrella, just incase.

 

[roli]

To believe in the Bible you need to choose to have faith in it. Why would you choose to have faith in something for which there is no evidence? Because they want to, simple as that.

No..... belief, faith, assurance,conviction, trust,all these are not what it takes for a christian to believe in the bible, these are a product of an encounter with God or his fruit,via the Holy Spirit.....first thing is first.
Now can God lead a person to the word of God and then touch him through a revelation of a particular verse or chapter regarding his relationship with God, sin, his own life etc ...absolutely, but again he does this through the leading and directing of the Holy Spirit.
John16:8 And when He ( holy spirit)has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


Without the Holy Spirit shedding light and revelation on the scriptures they are just a culmination of good moral teachings and sayings that have no life, no hope and no power behind them.
The bible not only becomes a laughing stock, it becomes an issue to debate and refute.
1Cr 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Many times people are led to the scriptures on their own accord ,but little do they know the Holy Spirit was directing them all the time.
When the Holy Spirit, which I believe is left out of much discussion in these forums,enlightens the believer , the word of God comes alive in living colour.
....and discerns the thoughts and intents of the man's heart

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Jhn 6:63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

 

[Mister Emu]

Yes I was frustrated, but I shouldn't of said that. I'm sorry if I offended you.

It is all good, I rarely take offense online

I really don't see how this is possible.

You don't see how it is possible for a belief to be voluntary and informed?

Maybe through self reflection you cannot see the involuntary things that have shaped your beliefs

What involuntary things though? If I can't find any, I have no reason to believe they exist at all...

I really do think you have got this backwards here.

I'll be the first to admit that different minds work... differently...

A question if I might,

You do not believe that Jesus is God, correct? If so, what do you find that involuntarily makes you believe that? I'd like to see where we differ in coming to our beliefs, I think we could come to a better understanding if we did so...

 

[MEMNOCK]

Greetings!

For the record, not everybody who believes in Christ and the Bible follows it!

I'm Baha'i, and although we recognize the Bible as scriptural, we follow our own scriptures (which amount to roughly 200 volumes) as newer, basically, more reliable Divine Guidance.

Muslims, of course, also recognize Christ, though unlike us they tend to disparage the Bible.

Regards,

Bruce

I agree with what your saying, I was merely referring to the typical type of christian(if there is such a thing). I also belive in the man that is referred to in the bible as Jesus. It is what they have done in his name for the last 2000 years that Jesus and I find appualing.

 

[MEMNOCK]

It was gods idea to get his children into heaven. So even if christians read the bible and do good deeds, the descision to award eternal life to them and to give them a heavenly home was not their idea. So you cant exactly say to them...'you read the bible because you want to get into heaven'....like that is what will get them there. What makes a christian go to heaven is god. That was HIS idea.

heneni

I mean no offense to you Heneni, It sounds like christianity is exactly what you need. Good luck with that...

 

[MEMNOCK]

Wow... you couldn't be MORE wrong. Again, while your situation is not unique, it's fallacious to think that everyone thinks like you. In fact, it's quite ego-centric and myopic to conclude that we all possess your failed image of God and the Scriptures.

LOL...A christian calling me or my beliefs myopic....Thanks Peter, I always enjoy a good laugh. Not to get off topic on the OP, but I was explaining why most christians quote the bible for everything versus using there own thoughts. I don't really want to get into a religious debate with you. My reasons are that you only believe and understand one very small part of what is God. Also, helping types that are at your level is not what I do anymore. take care...

 

[Scuba Pete]

LOL...A christian calling me or my beliefs myopic....Thanks Peter, I always enjoy a good laugh.

There's part of your problem. No discernment. You ARE myopic, and so exceedingly so, that you just can't see it. Go figure! The arrogance that somehow a lowly Christian such as myself, can't have a qualified opinion about your lack of insight into my faith is simply amazing. Sad, yes, but amazing nonetheless.

Not to get off topic on the OP, but I was explaining why most christians quote the bible for everything versus using there own thoughts.

More unsupported assumptions. I would contend that MOST Christians have very little knowledge about what is in the Bible, mush less be able to quote it. I would also contend that it appears that you have precious little knowledge about why most Christians do anything. Heck, you are refusing to listen to why I do what I do to the point of attributing motivations to me that I do not possess! No wonder your results are so skewed. Stop acting like you even START to understand us, and LISTEN to what we are saying. This is not for the intellectually lazy. Your bias about what you WANT us to believe is interfering with your ability to see it.

I don't really want to get into a religious debate with you.

Then why are you even HERE and posting in Religious Debates??? Are you simply here to troll or proselytize for atheism? Did you just want to waste our time with some meaningless drivel so that you can feel superior?

My reasons are that you only believe and understand one very small part of what is God.

Which judging by your responses seems to be quantum leaps ahead of where you are at the moment.

Also, helping types that are at your level is not what I do anymore. take care...

I must admit, that you have done an excellent job of not helping me. You are to be commended.

 

[herushura]

The Bible was Created to control people and tricking them into believing something that not there "like moon landings", people 21st have got the Mass Media as todays bible to trick people.

The Bible say that ever country except israel is Evil, they say that babylon,egypt, and they even talk about evil suffering against babylon "todays Iraq", this tricks people into evolving israel into a superpower

 

[Heneni]

My bolding.

Does this extend to those who are not his people? How are those who are not yet his people expected to find their way in the first place? And if God is the one choosing who to lead and who not to lead, then how is it ever a choice of the individual at all?

God chose and then god grooms. You can get to heaven looking ungroomed or you can get there fully groomed.

But you cant change gods mind about who he chose to be his children.

Dont be offended because god chose some and not others. Those who are not chosen, dont want to be anyway. But they will use this 'selection' of god to turn god into some sort of unfair, biased, exclusive club god. The same people who are offended that god chooses some and not others, are THE others. If you are chosen you will find that god finds you. If you pressume you are chosen you will try to find god but never find him, all the while convinced that you have found him. If you dont want to be chosen, its because you havent been.

Those who are chosen find god on the way. Like paul did. Those who are not chosen find god in the way.

Someone who falls over the rock on the way...is broken into pieces. A broken and contrite heart is what god works with. Someone on whom the rock falls is destroyed.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

The Bible was Created to control people and tricking them into believing something that not there "like moon landings", people 21st have got the Mass Media as todays bible to trick people.

The Bible say that ever country except israel is Evil, they say that babylon,egypt, and they even talk about evil suffering against babylon "todays Iraq", this tricks people into evolving israel into a superpower

You need to change your spectacles. The bible is evil and useless to those who read it without the proper decoder, which is commonly known by christians as the HS.

So i can understand your distain for the book. And even if it has many mistakes in it...i find it quite usefull. Others try to find fault with it. Thats not hard to do of course. But then...someone looking for treasure isnt bothered about the cover and errors, they are looking for the hidden treasures among all of those. Usually treasures are found amongst much rubble and dirt.

The bible has many profound teachings which is hidden from those who never put on the right pair of specatacles. But when you find the treasures you are simply not bothered by the dirt and the rubble and the controversies around the 'site' where you found the treasure.

Heneni

 

[ayani]

Ayani, hi!

Something else to consider is that we Bahai's accept and revere both Christ and Muhammad!

Best,

Bruce

yes, but... careful study of both the Quran and the contents of the Gospels can lead to unlike conclusions, too.

regarding textual / human inspiration, different conclusions can be come to, of course. and the Bahai Faith declares with confidce that both Mohammad and Jesus Christ were sent by (the same) God, in order to (in part) legitimize Baha'u'llah's own claims. understood.

yet if this is not the case, if X sent A but not B, it can not also be the case that X sent A, B, and C.

at once, i believed very much that Mohammad and Jesus both were/ could be messengers of the same God. asi no longer finding this spiritually or logically to be a possibility, i would have to also draw the same conclusions about those messengers coming after Mohammad, who verify the authenicity of His prophetic mission.

 

[roli]

The Bible was Created to control people and tricking them into believing something that not there "like moon landings", people 21st have got the Mass Media as todays bible to trick people.

Well, I must say, you are accurate...somewhat in your assertions of the bible being a mystery. But to say it is a source of trickery, which in essence is a means of deception, I must say....no, you are seriously wrong and it becomes evident your inability to understand the bible for what it is.
You seem to be upset about something and by blaming the bible only projects and deflects what is really going on.
There is obviously something you have issue with, yet at the same time you also are blinded to understanding the things of God.... and the scriptures, Jesus actually speaks about this very topic,
Mar 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mat 13:11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

.................this is 1 key to their ignorance:
Mat 13:15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them

Paul says this is the 2nd key to ignorance:
1Cr 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

There is a natural man and a spiritual man according to scripture and there is a difference.

The Bible say that ever country except israel is Evil, they say that babylon,egypt, and they even talk about evil suffering against babylon "todays Iraq", this tricks people into evolving israel into a superpower

Are you reading in context? Show me the reference then we will talk!!!

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

You are, of course, most welcome to your own beliefs!

Suffice it to say that we find no dificulty in resolving any purported differences.

I would hesitate, BTW, to say the Jesus' and Muhammad's purpose was to validate Baha'u'llah. They obviously came far earlier and had Their own roles to play and Their own teachings to promulgate for those Ages, such that supporting any later Messenger really wasn't a primary point then.

Regards,

Bruce