Why the Hell . . . .

[Sultan Of Swing]

I noted that, but it isn't justice I'm wondering about----obviously god feels it's just to mete out punishment for not obeying his rules---but the kind of justice he decided on. Instead of inflicting disobeying people with blindness for the rest of their lives, or making them lisp, god has chosen to send them to suffer in hell after they die. So why Hell? What is accomplished by expressly making people suffer in hell, and for eternity no less (in the beliefs of many)?

The wrongdoing against God deserves that particular punishment, that is simply the objective reason. One explanation is that as God is infinitely worthy, to rebel against Him deserves infinite punishment. That isn't confirmed or denied in the Scriptures however, but that's one possible explanation. What matter is that this is the punishment that is deserved.

 

[Draka]

I think the basic question of "what purpose does punishment have?" in general would be a good starting point. Does punishment have a purpose and if so, what is it?

 

[Draka]

The wrongdoing against God deserves that particular punishment, that is simply the objective reason. One explanation is that as God is infinitely worthy, to rebel against Him deserves infinite punishment. That isn't confirmed or denied in the Scriptures however, but that's one possible explanation. What matter is that this is the punishment that is deserved.

Do you have children? Do you punish them for things? Why? What is the purpose of punishing?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Do you have children? Do you punish them for things? Why? What is the purpose of punishing?

Much as human fathers do God does discipline His children in order that they learn and grow and become more holy and more like Jesus. However with the unsaved, these people have rejected God and are punished for their sin to fulfil justice.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I noted that, but it isn't justice I'm wondering about----obviously god feels it's just to mete out punishment for not obeying his rules---but the kind of justice he decided on. Instead of inflicting disobeying people with blindness for the rest of their lives, or giving them a lisp, god has chosen to send them to suffer in hell after they die. So why Hell? What is accomplished by expressly making people suffer in hell, and for eternity no less (in the beliefs of many)?

So why hell, heaven is where God is, everyone who confesses Jesus as Lord and is born again will go to be with their God in heaven. God created hell for satan and his demons and everyone who rejects God and His Savior will go spend eternity with their god satan.

 

[Draka]

Much as human fathers do God does discipline His children in order that they learn and grow and become more holy and more like Jesus. However with the unsaved, these people have rejected God and are punished for their sin to fulfil justice.

If punishment is discipline, and discipline is for teaching and correcting, then what use is eternal punishment? To what end? Eternal punishment, never-ending torture, is just cruel to be cruel. It does not show kindness or mercy. It does not evidence a loving deity. It evidences a sadistic and cruel one. One that punishes for their own reward. One that inflicts cruelty to satisfy their own desires and ego. There is no need, nor purpose, for eternal punishment except to please a sadist. If a deity truly cared for us, for our life existence, for our souls/spirits, then it would be benevolent in how it taught us. Eternal punishment teaches us nothing. Nothing at all.


Furthermore, think about it, would you throw your own child into a torture chamber to suffer for the rest of their lives if they turned away from you? If they disobeyed you? If they never wanted anything to do with you ever again, would you enact such a punishment? or would you hope they would change their mind and keep your home open to them should they ever find their way home? Would you not give them chance after chance in the hopes that you could have a reconciliation with them? Or would you have them caught, thrown away, tortured for the rest of their life, and justify it as "well, they shouldn't have walked away from me, they deserve that"?

 

[Skwim]

The wrongdoing against God deserves that particular punishment, that is simply the objective reason.

I've heard this reasoning before, and it's still lame: Whatever god does is justified because god can do no wrong, which includes human sacrifices, burning humans to death, killing one's own children, killing infants and the unborn, and even killing 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people. So, in truth, sending people to hell for all eternity is actually keeping in character for god.

What matter is that this is the punishment that is deserved.

Obviously this is what god is thinking or he wouldn't do it, BUT what is accomplished by making people suffer?

To put it as briefly as I can.

God feels that breaking his rules is so heinous that anyone who does so deserves to suffer in hell forever.

Question: What does this suffering accomplish?


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[Skwim]

If punishment is discipline, and discipline is for teaching and correcting, then what use is eternal punishment? To what end? Eternal punishment, never-ending torture, is just cruel to be cruel. It does not show kindness or mercy. It does not evidence a loving deity. It evidences a sadistic and cruel one. One that punishes for their own reward. One that inflicts cruelty to satisfy their own desires and ego. There is no need, nor purpose, for eternal punishment except to please a sadist. If a deity truly cared for us, for our life existence, for our souls/spirits, then it would be benevolent in how it taught us. Eternal punishment teaches us nothing. Nothing at all.


Furthermore, think about it, would you throw your own child into a torture chamber to suffer for the rest of their lives if they turned away from you? If they disobeyed you? If they never wanted anything to do with you ever again, would you enact such a punishment? or would you hope they would change their mind and keep your home open to them should they ever find their way home? Would you not give them chance after chance in the hopes that you could have a reconciliation with them? Or would you have them caught, thrown away, tortured for the rest of their life, and justify it as "well, they shouldn't have walked away from me, they deserve that"?

Very well put.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Obviously this is what god is thinking or he wouldn't do it, BUT what is accomplished by making people suffer?

To put it as briefly as I can.

God feels that breaking his rules is so heinous that anyone who does so deserves to suffer in hell forever.

Question: What does this suffering accomplish?
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The fulfilment of justice and the glory of God.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If punishment is discipline, and discipline is for teaching and correcting, then what use is eternal punishment? To what end? Eternal punishment, never-ending torture, is just cruel to be cruel. It does not show kindness or mercy. It does not evidence a loving deity. It evidences a sadistic and cruel one. One that punishes for their own reward. One that inflicts cruelty to satisfy their own desires and ego. There is no need, nor purpose, for eternal punishment except to please a sadist. If a deity truly cared for us, for our life existence, for our souls/spirits, then it would be benevolent in how it taught us. Eternal punishment teaches us nothing. Nothing at all.


Furthermore, think about it, would you throw your own child into a torture chamber to suffer for the rest of their lives if they turned away from you? If they disobeyed you? If they never wanted anything to do with you ever again, would you enact such a punishment? or would you hope they would change their mind and keep your home open to them should they ever find their way home? Would you not give them chance after chance in the hopes that you could have a reconciliation with them? Or would you have them caught, thrown away, tortured for the rest of their life, and justify it as "well, they shouldn't have walked away from me, they deserve that"?

There are consequences for our actions, we will be held accountable for them. Hitler isn't going to get away with genocide, and a rapist isn't going to get away with rape. People are responsible for their actions, and these actions bear consequences and just punishment. God has given humans many chances to repent, but they refuse. And when these people are in Hell, they will not suddenly love the Lord, they will still hate Him, and in their perpetual hatred they have perpetual punishment. Every good thing comes from the Lord. To reject, hate and rebel against the source of all good things, the source of all joy and love, will consequently deprive oneself of all good things, will consequently deprive oneself of joy and happiness, and earn everlasting punishment.

I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me;
I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said, “Here I am, here I am,”
to a nation that was not called by my name.
I spread out my hands all the day
to a rebellious people,
who walk in a way that is not good,
following their own devices;
a people who provoke me
to my face continually,
sacrificing in gardens
and making offerings on bricks;
who sit in tombs,
and spend the night in secret places;
who eat pig's flesh,
and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;
who say, “Keep to yourself,
do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.”
These are a smoke in my nostrils,
a fire that burns all the day.
Behold, it is written before me:
“I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will indeed repay into their lap
both your iniquities and your fathers' iniquities together,
says the Lord;
because they made offerings on the mountains
and insulted me on the hills,
I will measure into their lap
payment for their former deeds.”

 

[Draka]

There are consequences for our actions, we will be held accountable for them. Hitler isn't going to get away with genocide, and a rapist isn't going to get away with rape. People are responsible for their actions, and these actions bear consequences and just punishment. God has given humans many chances to repent, but they refuse. And when these people are in Hell, they will not suddenly love the Lord, they will still hate Him, and in their perpetual hatred they have perpetual punishment. Every good thing comes from the Lord. To reject, hate and rebel against the source of all good things, the source of all joy and love, will consequently deprive oneself of all good things, will consequently deprive oneself of joy and happiness, and earn everlasting punishment.

I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me;
I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said, “Here I am, here I am,”
to a nation that was not called by my name.
I spread out my hands all the day
to a rebellious people,
who walk in a way that is not good,
following their own devices;
a people who provoke me
to my face continually,
sacrificing in gardens
and making offerings on bricks;
who sit in tombs,
and spend the night in secret places;
who eat pig's flesh,
and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;
who say, “Keep to yourself,
do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.”
These are a smoke in my nostrils,
a fire that burns all the day.
Behold, it is written before me:
“I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will indeed repay into their lap
both your iniquities and your fathers' iniquities together,
says the Lord;
because they made offerings on the mountains
and insulted me on the hills,
I will measure into their lap
payment for their former deeds.”

Well, people aren't going to love someone for eternally punishing them now are they? If your god was all that and more, so loving that is, it wouldn't be cruel. Especially given that one can't possibly know for sure anyway that that God even exists until after they are dead, and who knows if that is truly even the case? So the whole repenting only when alive thing is an unrealistic expectation.

You never answered my questions. Would you punish your child in that way for turning from you? Would lifelong torture be the appropriate punishment for denying you as father? Stop your preaching and just answer that much.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Well, people aren't going to love someone for eternally punishing them now are they? If your god was all that and more, so loving that is, it wouldn't be cruel. Especially given that one can't possibly know for sure anyway that that God even exists until after they are dead, and who knows if that is truly even the case? So the whole repenting only when alive thing is an unrealistic expectation.

You never answered my questions. Would you punish your child in that way for turning from you? Would lifelong torture be the appropriate punishment for denying you as father? Stop your preaching and just answer that much.

No I wouldn't punish a child of mine for rejecting me. But human beings aren't the spiritual children of God unless they repent and turn to Him and He adopts them into His family. All are God's creation but being born in sin people hate Him and they are not God's children unless they are saved and adopted.

And by using the term 'child' we think of some unaccountable infant, but we are responsible adults who make decisions and those decisions have consequences. God is Judge and will hold all to account for what they have done.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

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The fulfilment of justice and the glory of God.

What is 'just' or 'glorious' about condemning people to infinite suffering for the finite 'crime' of using their God-given agency in a way he doesn't like?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

What is 'just' or 'glorious' about condemning people to infinite suffering for the finite 'crime' of using their God-given agency in a way he doesn't like?

Because God is worthy of all praise.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Because God is worthy of all praise.

Why?

 

[First Baseman]

Why?

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His gave only begotten Son that whosoever beleives in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.


God loves you and wants to save you even though you are a sinner. Is that not reason enough?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Why?

Because God is glorious! God's glories are evident in the Scriptures.

Oh sing to the Lord a new song;
sing to the Lord, all the earth!
Sing to the Lord, bless his name;
tell of his salvation from day to day.
Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous works among all the peoples!
For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised;
he is to be feared above all gods.
For all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols,
but the Lord made the heavens.
Splendor and majesty are before him;
strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.

Ascribe to the Lord, O families of the peoples,
ascribe to the Lord glory and strength!
Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name;
bring an offering, and come into his courts!
Worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness;
tremble before him, all the earth!

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns!
Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved;
he will judge the peoples with equity.”

Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice;
let the sea roar, and all that fills it;
let the field exult, and everything in it!
Then shall all the trees of the forest sing for joy
before the Lord, for he comes,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness,
and the peoples in his faithfulness.

 

[Skwim]

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The fulfilment of justice and the glory of God.

This answer is so sad. But if this is all you have then this is all you have: God is glorified by human suffering.


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[Sultan Of Swing]

This answer is so sad. But if this is all you have then this is all you have: God is glorified by human suffering..

Glorified by punishing the wicked and showing His justice, yes. Saying 'human suffering' in general is quite misleading, because that could include suffering which is not a result of deservedly received punishment. (Ultimately all things glorify God, but for the purpose of this topic we are talking about the punishment of the wicked, not human suffering in general.)

 

[Skwim]

Glorified by punishing the wicked and showing His justice, yes. Saying 'human suffering' in general is quite misleading, because that could include suffering which is not a result of deservedly received punishment.

But it isn't "in general" at all, is it. It's about the very specific human suffering that god inflicts on those who haven't followed his rules, and as we both know, it isn't only the wicked who are on the receiving end of god's wrath. All you have to be is faithless.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
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Seems I, a mere agnostic, know the Bible better than you do. Hmmm

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