Why the odd late in coming proposal by Kerry for Israel to be split into two states?

[whirlingmerc]

I don't think the UN, Kerry, Netanyahu, Abbas. . . or anyone, needs to do anything, at all. . . ever, based on the policy of what you think "god expects".

People should act according to their conscience and that can include what they believe God expects.

As Democrat Jimmy Carter said often
"He has shown you oh man what is good but to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God' from Micah

 

[whirlingmerc]

And this statement of Kerry's "Israel cannot be both Democratic and Jewish" is both off and a false dichotomy

 

[LuisDantas]

You know, if the radicalization and mistrust on your own politicians has truly reached the levels seen here, I don't know that there is a point to thinking of yourselves as a single country anymore.

At this point it looks like they are supposed to be motivated to show loyalty to some party and opposition to another, not to act as a real politician is expected to.

 

[metis]

And this statement of Kerry's "Israel cannot be both Democratic and Jewish" is both off and a false dichotomy

You forgot to include the "preamble" to what he said, namely if Israel rejects a two-state solution and goes with annexing the WB. With that latter scenario, the Palestinians shortly would outnumber the Jewish population, thus creating a crisis of sorts. If Israel's resolve is to go one-state, then to keep Israel a Jewish state is to basically invoke apartheid-type laws whereas the Palestinians can vote only for local politicians and maybe one representative in the Knesset but not for president.

What I think is more possible is that the WB will remain a "territory" of sorts, thus the non-Jewish residents will not have a say or possibly only a very limited say in the Knesset, along with probably no say when it comes to the office of president. It is impossible for me to picture any other scenario because of the position of Likud and the various right-wing minority parties that Likud has had to rely on to form coalition governments.

When I take a look at a map of the WB and where the settlements are and where new ones are to be built, I frankly don't see any likelihood that the WB will be part of a Palestinian state, plus Likud would get nasty feedback from its cooperating parties if it did so. And to dissolve any significant number of settlements is to invite civil war.

 

[Akivah]

In that case, it is important for you to understand that the Palestinian people have not been treated fairly.

I agree. Every refugee group in history was settled and incorporated into the general populace. It is only the Arab states that have kept these people in perpetual refugee status.

 

[esmith]

You forgot to include the "preamble" to what he said, namely if Israel rejects a two-state solution and goes with annexing the WB. With that latter scenario, the Palestinians shortly would outnumber the Jewish population, thus creating a crisis of sorts. If Israel's resolve is to go one-state, then to keep Israel a Jewish state is to basically invoke apartheid-type laws whereas the Palestinians can vote only for local politicians and maybe one representative in the Knesset but not for president.

What I think is more possible is that the WB will remain a "territory" of sorts, thus the non-Jewish residents will not have a say or possibly only a very limited say in the Knesset, along with probably no say when it comes to the office of president. It is impossible for me to picture any other scenario because of the position of Likud and the various right-wing minority parties that Likud has had to rely on to form coalition governments.

When I take a look at a map of the WB and where the settlements are and where new ones are to be built, I frankly don't see any likelihood that the WB will be part of a Palestinian state, plus Likud would get nasty feedback from its cooperating parties if it did so. And to dissolve any significant number of settlements is to invite civil war.

What is your opinion on the issue of East Jerusalem

 

[Jedster]

What is your opinion on the issue of East Jerusalem

(PMFJI) Speaking as an Israeli citizen, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and I believe will remain so, whatever anyone might think. Regarding the wb, I tend to agree with Metis's post.
As I see it, the only way there could be another Arab state on the WB is for it to be without a military of it's own and would be an Israeli and/or UN protectorate.

 

[Jedster]

I agree. Every refugee group in history was settled and incorporated into the general populace. It is only the Arab states that have kept these people in perpetual refugee status.

Yes. Many people don't know that Israel never invaded the wb in 67 and that it was Jordan that attacked Israel. After threir loss King Hussain, relinquished resposibility thuus making it a Palestinian/Israel issue instead of an Israel /Arab issue.

 

[esmith]

(PMFJI) Speaking as an Israeli citizen, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and I believe will remain so, whatever anyone might think. Regarding the wb, I tend to agree with Metis's post.
As I see it, the only way there could be another Arab state on the WB is for it to be without a military of it's own and would be an Israeli and/or UN protectorate.

Well I happen to agree with you.
Now from what I understand is that Israel really would like peace and would accept a Palestinian State on the condition that certain terrorist organizations associations and the Palestine government would accept the right of Israel to exist.
To this end, from what I understand, is the idea of "Peace through land". In other words Israel would be willing to give up certain lands on the above conditions of peace. However, with the UN resolution, Israel is left with no "bargaining power". The Palestine collation now has the UN resolution that says the land is theirs and Israel can either accept it or continue the terrorist acts against them. In addition if Israel does not submit to the ruling they would be in violation of international law if brought before the World Court.
Basically I'm saying that with this UN action the UN has put an enormous roadblock in the peace process, that the terrorist acts will continue and Israel will relater as they should.

Am I seeing this correctly or have I misunderstood what has happened and will happen

 

[Jedster]

Well I happen to agree with you.
Now from what I understand is that Israel really would like peace and would accept a Palestinian State on the condition that certain terrorist organizations associations and the Palestine government would accept the right of Israel to exist.
To this end, from what I understand, is the idea of "Peace through land". In other words Israel would be willing to give up certain lands on the above conditions of peace. However, with the UN resolution, Israel is left with no "bargaining power". The Palestine collation now has the UN resolution that says the land is theirs and Israel can either accept it or continue the terrorist acts against them. In addition if Israel does not submit to the ruling they would be in violation of international law if brought before the World Court.
Basically I'm saying that with this UN action the UN has put an enormous roadblock in the peace process, that the terrorist acts will continue and Israel will relater as they should.

Am I seeing this correctly or have I misunderstood what has happened and will happen

I can't answer that. Hopefully someone who is more in the know re: the UN can answer you.
I'll just say this this whole war started with the Arab states not accepting the General Assembly resolution accepting Israel as a state. They then declared war. The rest is history. Noone stopped these Arabs states. Why have they not been brought before the world court?

I am not sure how much power the UN has in real life, other than using it as a political platform.
At the end of the last war between Israel and Hizbolla, it was promised that Hizbolla would not be rearmed. Surprise nothing happened. The UN forces there just watched as arms poured in.
Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza in return for peace. What a joke.
etc
etc

 

[Quetzal]

They then declared war. The rest is history. Noone stopped these Arabs states.

I wouldn't go quite that fair. The American government has sunk billions into arming and protecting Israel via logistics and supplies. So, one could argue that the US has indirectly stopped these states since Israel's continued existence is, in a large part, dependent on US support.

 

[Kirran]

I can't answer that. Hopefully someone who is more in the know re: the UN can answer you.
I'll just say this this whole war started with the Arab states not accepting the General Assembly resolution accepting Israel as a state. They then declared war. The rest is history. Noone stopped these Arabs states. Why have they not been brought before the world court?

I'd agree with you, but I'd like to add the proviso they were encourage din their belligerent position by the actions of the Jewish militias of the Mandate period and the rhetoric of the Zionist settlers.

The Zionist position of the time, given the situation of the Jewish people globally and their recent traumas in Europe, was understandable as well, of course.

You know I never knew you were Israeli. Huh.

 

[Jedster]

I wouldn't go quite that fair. The American government has sunk billions into arming and protecting Israel via logistics and supplies. So, one could argue that the US has indirectly stopped these states since Israel's continued existence is, in a large part, dependent on US support.

USA has given support to many states in the area including enemies of Israel.

In my statement "They then declared war. The rest is history. Noone stopped these Arabs states.", I was referring to the initial resolution accepting Israel as a state.
You may find this article of interest which refers to this time.
Who did what for Israel in 1948? America did nothing
Who did what for Israel in 1948? America did nothing

 

[esmith]

I can't answer that. Hopefully someone who is more in the know re: the UN can answer you.
I'll just say this this whole war started with the Arab states not accepting the General Assembly resolution accepting Israel as a state. They then declared war. The rest is history. Noone stopped these Arabs states. Why have they not been brought before the world court?

I am not sure how much power the UN has in real life, other than using it as a political platform.
At the end of the last war between Israel and Hizbolla, it was promised that Hizbolla would not be rearmed. Surprise nothing happened. The UN forces there just watched as arms poured in.
Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza in return for peace. What a joke.
etc
etc

The UN really has no power. If you look at most of their agenda it is against two countries....Israel and the United States.
My opinion.

 

[Quetzal]

USA has given support to many states in the area including enemies of Israel.

May be the case, but my point still stands.

 

[metis]

Let me just add something to this general topic.

One thing that I have found that so many either don't realize or they just forget is how very small Israel is. If you live in the States or Canada or even France, it's difficult to relate to Israel's position vis-a-vis its size plus that it is surrounded by countries that would love nothing more than taking over.

There's a feeling in Israel that if they were to lose one battle, that could not only be the end of Israel, but also that a mass slaughter of Jews and their "collaborators" would likely take place. This is not just speculation as some of the Arabic leaders in the past have stated as such.

 

[Akivah]

I can't answer that. Hopefully someone who is more in the know re: the UN can answer you.
I'll just say this this whole war started with the Arab states not accepting the General Assembly resolution accepting Israel as a state. They then declared war. The rest is history. Noone stopped these Arabs states. Why have they not been brought before the world court?

I am not sure how much power the UN has in real life, other than using it as a political platform.
At the end of the last war between Israel and Hizbolla, it was promised that Hizbolla would not be rearmed. Surprise nothing happened. The UN forces there just watched as arms poured in.
Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza in return for peace. What a joke.
etc
etc

Very true. Every time Israel gives land to the Arabs, the Arabs just use it to launch more attacks against Israel. Anyone that thinks the issue is about land is just deluding themselves.

At least the latest anti-Israeli resolution is under Article 6 of the UN which makes it un-implentable.

 

[tytlyf]

So now everyone understands what's being discussed and can see it's best for Israel and Palestinians. Turn off RW media.

 

[Jedster]

I'd agree with you, but I'd like to add the proviso they were encourage din their belligerent position by the actions of the Jewish militias of the Mandate period and the rhetoric of the Zionist settlers.

The Zionist position of the time, given the situation of the Jewish people globally and their recent traumas in Europe, was understandable as well, of course.

You know I never knew you were Israeli. Huh.

I am also English, btw, living in Somerset now. :>)

Quite honestly, I don't think nationality is usually relevant. I just thought I'd give esmith an Israeli's opinion.

Also , I promised myself that I wouldn't comment on the ME when I came here.
I was a member here some time ago and was banned without ever being told why. It happened after I'd made some posts about Israel/Arab situation.
I was told that "two long term members" thought I should be banned and so I was banned.
Some months later I received a letter of apology asking me to return, which I eventually did(obviously :>)) and have restricted my opinions on this matter to using the 'likes' thingy.

 

[Kirran]

I am also English, btw, living in Somerset now. :>)

Quite honestly, I don't think nationality is usually relevant. I just thought I'd give esmith an Israeli's opinion.

Also , I promised myself that I wouldn't comment on the ME when I came here.
I was a member here some time ago and was banned without ever being told why. It happened after I'd made some posts about Israel/Arab situation.
I was told that "two long term members" thought I should be banned and so I was banned.
Some months later I received a letter of apology asking me to return, which I eventually did(obviously :>)) and have restricted my opinions on this matter to using the 'likes' thingy.

Ah, not a million miles from where I sit at this laptop.

That seems a bit odd, but I suppose I didn't see the situation so I can't comment. But the mods we have around now generally seem pretty level-headed.

I find I get a lot of flak for being neither pro-Palestine nor pro-Israel. Maybe you are similar.