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Why the US doesn’t have a Muslim problem, and Europe does
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Parenthetical aside....
Mid-East types & Muslims began immigrating to SE MIchiganistan around 1870.
They're pretty well assimilated....& busy opening restaurants & grocery stores.
Mid-East types & Muslims began immigrating to SE MIchiganistan around 1870.
They're pretty well assimilated....& busy opening restaurants & grocery stores.
My thought is that it is partially because we have no land or really even boat connection to the Muslim world. Poor refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants can only get to America by plane where things can be very controlled by rules and laws.
And without looking at numbers, I would say America's Muslim percentage is lower than in many European countries and that our Muslim populations are less concentrated.
And without looking at numbers, I would say America's Muslim percentage is lower than in many European countries and that our Muslim populations are less concentrated.
HonestJoe
Well-Known Member
Maybe if this was identified as an immigration problem rather than just a Muslim problem the key factor would be clear. After all, we could equally ask why the US has a “Hispanic problem” when Europe doesn’t (many of the same kind of problems identified here in fact). The answer is geography.
For people leaving North Africa and the Middle East, be it for safer or more prosperous lives, Europe is the obvious destination. For South Americans looking for the same kind of move, the US is their obvious destination. The articles single-person anecdotes aside, there are clear differences between middle-class immigrants and poorer refugees and economic migrants. The former have more flexibility to choose their destination, maybe even moving to an existing job or educational course, hence a greater proportion making the long (and unavoidably expensive) journey to the US. The latter have no option, commonly fleeing on foot and overland, crossing the Mediterranean in small, private boats; they couldn’t get to the US even if they wanted to.
Clearly these two distinct groups of migrants are going to have very different prospects regarding integration, both from their own point of view and in the response from native citizens.
The average Muslim population for Europe is 6% of 745 million people, that's 44,580,000
i believe in America its about 1%, of 324 million people, thats
3,245,000
There is a 13.7 fold increases in potential problems right there.
Add 3000 miles of Atlantic ocean and you have your answer
Where i lived in the uk, the Muslim population was around 10%, that's not excessive for north west uk. The vast majority simply want to get on with their lives and do the best they can for their kids.
Some very few don't.
You're the only European I've ever heard that from. Granted, though, I haven't spoken with a lot of Europeans about it, but those that I have tell me Europe doesn't assimilate immigrants -- very much including Muslim immigrants -- nearly as well as the US.
We don't have an Hispanic problem in anything like the same sense that Europe has a Muslim problem. The Hispanics who come here to stay are assimilating into US culture and society just fine. But the Muslims who go to Europe to stay are not assimilating into their national societies and cultures. See the difference?
We have a lot more land. That accounts for much of the difference.
Another thing is that we have a very high percentage of Christians, whereas Europe has a high percentage of atheists. I think Muslims in an atheist society feel guilty about not preaching, because all these atheists are going to hell; but in a Christian society they probably don't feel so much guilt as Christians can go to heaven.
Another thing is that we have a very high percentage of Christians, whereas Europe has a high percentage of atheists. I think Muslims in an atheist society feel guilty about not preaching, because all these atheists are going to hell; but in a Christian society they probably don't feel so much guilt as Christians can go to heaven.
They come over here, live in Muslim ghettos and still behave as though they live in the Middle East/Africa. That's pretty much it.
Yes I see differences.
But they aren't all that large. The Hispanics who come to the USA aren't assimilating all that well either, although for very different reasons.
What I am seeing is mainly "Colonial chickens coming home to roost".
It manifests differently in different places, but it's mostly the same thing.
Tom
Are you referring to the results of European colonialism?
My summary of the author's reason why Muslims in Europe aren't assimilating is: "Because Europeans make it hard".
horse apples.
What makes it hard is that Islamic values don't play well with non-Islamic values. Europe is home to immigrants from all over the world, and all of those other immigrant groups assimilate far more readily into European culture.
This is a question of basic values. Islam's basic values are incompatible with modernity. As the author describes Muslims that have come to America, these Muslims have largely abandoned many of the more problematic traditional Islamic values.
horse apples.
What makes it hard is that Islamic values don't play well with non-Islamic values. Europe is home to immigrants from all over the world, and all of those other immigrant groups assimilate far more readily into European culture.
This is a question of basic values. Islam's basic values are incompatible with modernity. As the author describes Muslims that have come to America, these Muslims have largely abandoned many of the more problematic traditional Islamic values.
Wasn't only the EuroChristians, although the USA definitely qualifies in the category.
In the last couple of centuries "capitalist corporate" colonialism has been on the rise, particularly the last half century. That is more the current problem.
Tom
Source?
You do realize there is a distinction to be made between immigrants and migrants? The first come here to stay. They are usually the minority. The second come here to work and go home. They are usually the vast majority*. I am speaking only of true immigrants when I talk about assimilation.
*For example, of the Italians who came to America in the late 1800s and early 1900s, 90% came to work and return home; only 10% came to immigrate.
While this is just an anecdote, I live in the central coast of California, which has a high hispanic population. My experience is that most of the Hispanics I encounter have assimilated quite well.
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You're making the author's case for him. Abandoning "many of the more problematic traditional Islamic values" is also known as "assimilation" -- or at least a good part of it.
I suspect that a significant part of it is that many Muslims are motivated by a perception of "reclaiming land for God", and it is fairly clear that while much of Europe has been at least claimed by Muslim rulers at some point or another, the same can hardly be said of the USA.