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Why the US doesn’t have a Muslim problem, and Europe does

Jumi

Well-Known Member
English is also an easy language to learn, unlike many of the languages in Europe that require quite a dedication to learn. Teaching material quality might vary, and as some people might not even speak English or a language that has teaching material available, they might have to learn another language first. Often people who have lived here for decades or people who were born here but mainly speak another language are easy to notice as immigrants from their speech.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
They come over here, live in Muslim ghettos and still behave as though they live in the Middle East/Africa. That's pretty much it.

Some do, not all of us. And you're forgetting South Asia, not to mention the thousand and one other countries us Muslims come from (including, of course, the UK, Balkan and other European countries).
 
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The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
I suspect that a significant part of it is that many Muslims are motivated by a perception of "reclaiming land for God", and it is fairly clear that while much of Europe has been at least claimed by Muslim rulers at some point or another, the same can hardly be said of the USA.

I don't think so. It's for far more mundane reasons that the majority, probably even the vast majority, of Muslims who migrate to Europe do so - money, a better life for them and their kids, a safer life, etc. (of course, there are always going to be one or two missionary types, but they're often not first gen anyway)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Some do, not all of us. And you're forgetting South Asia, not to mention the thousand and one other countries us Muslims come from (including, of course, the UK, Balkan and other European countries).

There seems to be a noticeable difference in attitude when they come from communities with a Muslim majority or even a sizeable minority, though. A fair bit more of, for lack of a better word, proselitistic entitlement.

I don't think so. It's for far more mundane reasons that the majority, probably even the vast majority, of Muslims who migrate to Europe do so - money, a better life for them and their kids, a safer life, etc. (of course, there are always going to be one or two missionary types, but they're often not first gen anyway)

I wasn't addressing the reasons proper, but the attitude and expectations.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Can you expand a bit on that?

Certainly.

Most of my direct interaction with theists involves Brazilian Christians and Spiritists of some variety or another, with a few occultists, Hindus and Buddhists thrown in for good measure.

Muslims I have rarely actually met in person, and when I did we did not really talk about religion or beliefs. There are very few exceptions, at least one of those being probably what I would call a "cultural Muslim", not entlrely unlike the very many cultural Catholics that I know. That being, people who had a family environment that demanded or strongly expected them to attain a degree of familiarity and nominal adherence to the doctrine, but left to their own devices would probably not choose to claim such adherence.

I don't really disapprove of cultural adherents, by the way. There is value in learning a common vocabulary with people we care about. I don't even necessarily disapprove of the expectations that make cultural adherence necessary, although I am sorry that they are so frequent and long for the day when such is no longer the case.

My impression of Islaam and of Muslims therefore owes a lot to what I have read in various venues, mainly in these forums. And I have come to accept that I had extrapolated unfairly from Christianity into Islaam.

Christianity, at least in my experience, is very heterogeneous. It lent a lot of concepts and language to people that don't really care about it that much; it brought a form and an opportunity of expression to many theists that I have no doubt would find some other venue to their faith if it came to that; and it enables quite a few dangerous, self-entitled maniacs that cause a lot of harm both subtle and overt to people that deserve better, including themselves.

Islaam is a lot like Christianity in some senses, but very much unlike it in others. One the contrasts is that, despite itself, Christianity is often a true religion, with due space for personal development and contemplation.

Islaam, I have found to my considerable surprise, actually chooses not to be a true religion, despite its own protestations. It likes the trappings and the prestige, but it forbids itself from actually becoming a religion - a self-inflicted trap which the Bahai Faith has largely learned to raise itself above, despite being so much alike the Islaam that originated it in so many respects.

Islaam is an imitation, a caricature even, of what a stereotypical monotheistic religion would be. It has very little doctrine proper, but it exacerbates monotheism to the point of an actual disease. Most Muslims are not even acquaintanced with the idea of religion, if the apologists that I have seen in these last fifteen years or so are any indication. They are utterly unprepared to even attempt to learn about it, and it shows. They have been told that obsession with monotheism would constitute "religion" and that it is Very Important Indeed to believe "correctly", and for the most part they believe in that.

And boy, does that cripple them. Does it ever. I feel real sorry for the world's Muslims. They waste so much good will in their fears of displeasing God, in their pointless obsessions and discussions about simple scripture, in their vain hopes that people will eventually "revert" and prove them right. Quite simply, they never had much of a chance of learning better.

Unfortunately, the end result is still a group that is dead set on "being true to God" and that has littlle ability to deal with us so-called "kuffar" in any constructive way. It will take a lot of sorrow and several generations before that trap can be undone. Until then we will have to deal with that unnecessary mistrust and fear as best as we can, and be on guard for occasional clashes of various degrees of gravity.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Thank you for taking the time to explain your position more fully.

However, I don't really see how this has anything to do with your earlier point that I was contesting, to wit: 'I suspect that a significant part of it is that many Muslims are motivated by a perception of "reclaiming land for God"'.

In any case, let's debate these newer points of yours:

Most of my direct interaction with theists involves Brazilian Christians and Spiritists of some variety or another, with a few occultists, Hindus and Buddhists thrown in for good measure.

Muslims I have rarely actually met in person, and when I did we did not really talk about religion or beliefs.

So how can you claim to know what the vast majority of ordinary Muslims going about their everyday lives (who haven't got the time or the inclination to participate in these kinds of online fora) think and feel about their religion and what it means to them?

My impression of Islaam and of Muslims therefore owes a lot to what I have read in various venues, mainly in these forums. And I have come to accept that I had extrapolated unfairly from Christianity into Islaam.

But it is a certain kind of person who comes on these fora, typically with some sort of axe to grind or point to make. So you are getting only one side of the 'Muslim story'.

Islaam is a lot like Christianity in some senses, but very much unlike it in others. One the contrasts is that, despite itself, Christianity is often a true religion, with due space for personal development and contemplation.

What's your definition of a 'true religion'?

Islaam, I have found to my considerable surprise, actually chooses not to be a true religion, despite its own protestations.

How so?

It has very little doctrine proper,

Can you give me an example of a doctrine from Christianity that you feel Islaam has so little of?

Most Muslims are not even acquaintanced with the idea of religion, if the apologists that I have seen in these last fifteen years or so are any indication.

As I have indicated above, don't rely solely on the kind of Muslim who frequents these fora. They're not particularly representative. By so doing, you miss out on the perspectives of a huge chunk of the Muslim populace, for whom their religion does provide them with the space for personal growth and enlightenment. You just don't get to see it because it happens in their homes and their minds.

They waste so much good will in their fears of displeasing God, in their pointless obsessions and discussions about simple scripture, in their vain hopes that people will eventually "revert" and prove them right.

I don't. My wife doesn't. Our families don't.
 
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