I think we must take into consideration cultural, political, and socioeconomic assimilation -- all of those, at a minimum.
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Why the US doesn’t have a Muslim problem, and Europe does
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
I think we must take into consideration cultural, political, and socioeconomic assimilation -- all of those, at a minimum.
Some of it could also be explained by geography. The US is far more geographically removed from the Middle East and other Muslim-majority areas, whereas Europe is right next door.
I don't doubt that. Around here(southern Indiana) , lack of assimilation isn't a problem either.
But the Hispanics generally cannot really assimilate because it's illegal. We will give them jobs, but not papers. It isn't possible for them to fully assimilate.
Don't get me wrong. I like Hispanic culture and people. It really gripes me when the grandchildren of Irish immigrants talk about "protecting our country from those people". And that's a bunch of my family!
I want to give them all papers and let them get on with their lives, the way this country did for my ancestors. Prioritize the people who want to come and stay and help build up this country the way my grandparents did. Not keep them in the basement by only giving them jobs as long as they keep their heads down and don't rock the boat.
Tom
Here in Brazil the Muslims are few and hard to quantify, mostly descendants from Libaneses and Syrians, and while true tensions are almost unheard of, they are remarkable for their keeping to themselves.
One gets the sense that they don't fully trust non-Muslims, come to think of it.
That is noticeable because Brazil is nearly a stranger to the idea of ethnic tradition. It is most unusual for a person to have a phenotype that could not pass for that of a Brazilian, and even highly traditionalistic communities such as the Japanese seem to generally integrate fairly well. Take the Jewish People, for instance. I have been told, and fully believe, that their main worry as a minority group in Brazil is that their people might choose to marry outside the faith.
Still, I can only assume that if we had a higher percentage of Muslims the tensions would indeed arise. As it is now, they enjoy a lot more religious freedom than I expect they would have anywhere in the Arab world.
One gets the sense that they don't fully trust non-Muslims, come to think of it.
That is noticeable because Brazil is nearly a stranger to the idea of ethnic tradition. It is most unusual for a person to have a phenotype that could not pass for that of a Brazilian, and even highly traditionalistic communities such as the Japanese seem to generally integrate fairly well. Take the Jewish People, for instance. I have been told, and fully believe, that their main worry as a minority group in Brazil is that their people might choose to marry outside the faith.
Still, I can only assume that if we had a higher percentage of Muslims the tensions would indeed arise. As it is now, they enjoy a lot more religious freedom than I expect they would have anywhere in the Arab world.
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PureX
Veteran Member
It is a recipe for disaster to allow foreigners to emigrate into a country, and then refuse to give them the opportunity to become a part of that country's functional population. To do that would virtually insure the creation of an angry, resentful underclass, ripe for exploitation by anyone wanting to ferment violence and chaos.
Also, countries that have not managed to successfully sustain the populations that they already have should not be welcoming more people in that they will also not be able to sustain. It's like a family that's already having trouble feeding their five kids, taking in five more.
Also, countries that have not managed to successfully sustain the populations that they already have should not be welcoming more people in that they will also not be able to sustain. It's like a family that's already having trouble feeding their five kids, taking in five more.
I wonder how come (according to the article) Muslim immigrants to the USA are so well-off. Perhaps they had to show proper profesional qualification before being given visas?
It is very unusual for a well-off Brazilian to be openly Muslim. The most visible Muslims tend to work family stores.
It is very unusual for a well-off Brazilian to be openly Muslim. The most visible Muslims tend to work family stores.
I saw a CNN interview on this between a Retired US security head and a Retired UK security head. It came down to the Atlantic Ocean. Terrorists can just drive to all European locations or even walk. They can't do the same for the US. The US security head said that in NY they have about 4 people on the watch list every year and suggested the UK had hundreds. The UK security head said they actually have over 1000 people on the extreme watch list and over 4000 people on the watch list per year.
That was exactly the point of the piece
Unlike Europe, the US has a very different track record with Muslim immigrants. According to the Pew Research Center there are 3.3 million (or 1% of the population) Muslims living in the US. Furthermore, in the US Muslims make up 10% of US physicians, are the 2nd most educated group after the Jewish population, are as likely as other American households to report an income of $100,000 or more, and over 6,000 serve in the military[4]. The report found that Muslim Americans are “highly assimilated into American society and . . . largely content with their lives.” Unlike European Muslims the report also found that 80 percent of US Muslims were happy with life in America, and 63 percent said they felt no conflict “between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society.”[5] Furthermore, this integration into American culture and society, according to the report, is evident in the rates they participate in various everyday activities such as following local sports teams or watching entertainment TV — all similar to those of the American public generally. Lastly, most telling of their loyalty and sense of inclusion, according to the Pew report, is that half of all Muslim immigrants display the US flag at home, in the office, or on their car.[6] It is this sense of inclusion that in large parts contributes to the fact that only an estimated 250 Americans have joined ISIS – a number far less than the number of Belgium citizens who have gone to Syria and Iraq.
From personal experience: In my small community of around 30000, our Muslim population are simply a part of our community. Mostly doctors ( my kids Pediatrician) and a new dentist that I met recently. No problems nor do I foresee any. Just good people that are an asset to my community.
Is it just me, or we seem to be talking mostly about the difference between communities that have been screened for profesional qualification before immigration and others that have not?
Jumi
Well-Known Member
When I was born Muslims were unheard of in my country. I never met one until I was an adult that I knew was Muslim. Outside from a small group numbering in thousands that arrived in 1800s there were ~0% in the country and these Muslims had long since integrated completely as part of society. Now demographics have changed a lot and area where I live I used to go out 10 years ago and rarely see women wearing hijabs, now that is almost impossible. People generally react to these kind of fast changes with fear. Another thing that causes fear is radical local mosques funded from Turkey and Gulf states and related events.
My experiences are varied. I'll start with the negative, then go to the positive and finally give a local curiosity. There are people who lived here for two decades who have no idea about the culture or language, or at least refuse to show it. There are radical mosques (indeed there is one quite close to me it seems) funded from abroad and religious teachers that have radical ideas. Many of these people seem to have the idea that we are the same as the Americans and understand English better than our languages. There are also Muslims who've taken the effort to learn the language, who work as educated professionals in various fields and I have had the pleasure of working with them and talking with them. Many of them take pleasure in local culture and that is always appreciated by locals in any country. This is an increasing group. What might surprise some, is that there is also an increasing group of Muslim immigrants who are anti-immigration and have become friends with local "alt right", visiting their demonstrations and youtube broadcasts. So it's not at all like the US.
My experiences are varied. I'll start with the negative, then go to the positive and finally give a local curiosity. There are people who lived here for two decades who have no idea about the culture or language, or at least refuse to show it. There are radical mosques (indeed there is one quite close to me it seems) funded from abroad and religious teachers that have radical ideas. Many of these people seem to have the idea that we are the same as the Americans and understand English better than our languages. There are also Muslims who've taken the effort to learn the language, who work as educated professionals in various fields and I have had the pleasure of working with them and talking with them. Many of them take pleasure in local culture and that is always appreciated by locals in any country. This is an increasing group. What might surprise some, is that there is also an increasing group of Muslim immigrants who are anti-immigration and have become friends with local "alt right", visiting their demonstrations and youtube broadcasts. So it's not at all like the US.
There's people immigrating to Jovian moons?! Did they finally discover fish under the ice and set up a fishing industry?
On a more serious note I just found out the EU's official site is called Europa...
"In Greek mythology Europa (/jʊˈroʊpə, jə-/; Greek: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē) was the mother of King Minos of Crete, a woman with Phoenician origin of high lineage, and for whom the continent Europe was named."
"In Greek mythology Europa (/jʊˈroʊpə, jə-/; Greek: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē) was the mother of King Minos of Crete, a woman with Phoenician origin of high lineage, and for whom the continent Europe was named."
Ya, but naming something after something and naming something the exact same as something is a little different.
Also way to ruin my joke.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
If somebody doesn't think there is a Muslim problem in America then they obviously haven't been to Torrance, California. Everywhere I go they never have at least one vegan friendly Muslim restaurant and all that I get are these religious whackos smiling knowing I do not care about their halal meats.
WHERE IS THAT WALL WHEN WE NEED IT!
I shall NOT BE treated as an omnivore in a Muslim restaurant!
WHERE IS THAT WALL WHEN WE NEED IT!I shall NOT BE treated as an omnivore in a Muslim restaurant!
While it appears you and I agree, the most common, PC response would be more like "traditional Islamic values are not in conflict with modernity". In my experience, it's extremely rare for any Muslim or apologist to make such an admission.
I've been to Torrance, California. It was a long time ago, though. Isn't there a big oil refinery there?
Little known fact: Torrance, California is named after Danny Torrance, who was the young kid in The Shining who was having visions and shouted out "Redrum! Redrum!"
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
Yup, that refinery leaked toxic gas twice in a ro over a month last year. It put thousands of lives in danger and the refinery has been in scandals since. They are refusing to release documents for maintenance and are now under scrutiny of being lazy imbeciles threatening their own employees.
I do not live in Torrance but my girlfriend does hence I am always there
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HonestJoe
Well-Known Member
Muslims have been moving to Europe longer than the USA has existed. There are specific issues today with mass migration from conflicts around North African and the Middle East but that is just one part of a much bigger and more diverse picture. Lots of Hispanics in the US assimilate (with a similar long and diverse history) just like lots of Muslims in Europe do but to deny that there is any conflict and disruption in the US with immigrants from the South would be naive or dishonest, just as it would be to deny problems with some of the Muslim immigration to Europe.
The point is that this isn’t a “Muslim problem” or a “European problem”, it’s a human problem and the common factors where these problems occur is where there is short term unmanaged immigration of people out of desperation rather than managed migration of skilled workers out of mutual choice. Both kinds of migration exist in both environments we’re discussing and they need to be acknowledged and distinguished in any honest discussion of the topic.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I can only speak from things I've read, but my understanding is that when it comes to culture, Europe is more like patchwork rather than a melting pot, with little overlapping influence.