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Why THIS religion and not THAT religion?

Faint

Well-Known Member
I've been on this site for a while, and it seems that when we debate religion long enough the fundamental difference between why the nonreligious disagree with the religious is a matter of faith. In other words, the nonrelgious rely on reason, whereas the religious subscribe to faith. I have often seen the religious describe reason as a flawed tool, and as something unnecessary to their beliefs.

Okay, so if that's the case, if reason is shunned in matters of religion, why do you (if you're religious) choose your particular religion over any other?

Are you convinced your religion is more reasonable than another? And if you use reason to distinguish between two religions (in other words, to determine which is "more believable") are you in fact contradicting the idea of faith by using reason at all?
 

Faint

Well-Known Member
PetShopBoy88 said:
That's pretty much it. Having faith in my religion is more reasonable. :p
Out of curiousity, is your religion 80's synth pop?

doppleganger said:
Personally, I find that I'm okay with pretty much any "religion"
"Okay" meaning you accept any of them as true?
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
Faint said:
Out of curiousity, is your religion 80's synth pop?
:biglaugh: That's one of them.

My religion is essentially something I have synthesized (haha I made a funny ) through reading The Bible.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
I have often seen the religious describe reason as a flawed tool

i'd be interested to see where i have described reason as a "flawed tool"

Okay, so if that's the case, if reason is shunned in matters of religion, why do you (if you're religious) choose your particular religion over any other?

Are you convinced your religion is more reasonable than another? And if you use reason to distinguish between two religions (in other words, to determine which is "more believable") are you in fact contradicting the idea of faith by using reason at all?

my belief in an incoporeal omnipotent Divine being is something of faith...my reason for being a jew is because the teachings of the faith make the most sense to me and appeal to me
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Faint said:
"Okay" meaning you accept any of them as true?

In connotation, generally, yes. Though almost every one of them is a mixture of inspirational revelation over which is written an exploitative politics. When I say "religion" here, I mean the original writings - not the "identities" created from them (i.e. not the dogmas, doctrines and rules).
 

Mr. Hair

Renegade Cavalcade
Faint said:
Okay, so if that's the case, if reason is shunned in matters of religion
Reason certainly isn't "shunned" in religion, it just isn't regarded as the only (For lack of a better image) 'tool' at our disposal; in some areas reason is often simply not an appropriate 'tool' to use. I've personally found that my faith and my reason support and define each other, one does not exclude the other.

Besides, faith is a reasonable way of dealing with the unknown.

why do you (if you're religious) choose your particular religion over any other?
I chose to identify with my particular faith because I felt it reflected what I thought I knew and what I felt I had yet to live* more simply and clearly then any other at that time. As each perspective is a different one, I dare say others will see different reflections.

Are you convinced your religion is more reasonable than another?
No, I'd say more but I don't really understand what you're asking here; apologies. :)

EDIT ~ *That would be in the more Taoisty sense of the word.
 

steve218

New Member
All religion is using reason to accept the unreasonable. Everyone shares this certain drive to seek answers about the unknown. Unfortunately, everyone does not share the same reasoning. Thats why separation of religions exist. Thats why separation within religions exist. That my two cents.
 

steve218

New Member
When I say "religion" here, I mean the original writings - not the "identities" created from them (i.e. not the dogmas, doctrines and rules).

So you just believe in good morale? If thats the case, most of us do.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Faint said:
I've been on this site for a while, and it seems that when we debate religion long enough the fundamental difference between why the nonreligious disagree with the religious is a matter of faith. In other words, the nonrelgious rely on reason, whereas the religious subscribe to faith. I have often seen the religious describe reason as a flawed tool, and as something unnecessary to their beliefs.

Okay, so if that's the case, if reason is shunned in matters of religion, why do you (if you're religious) choose your particular religion over any other?

Are you convinced your religion is more reasonable than another? And if you use reason to distinguish between two religions (in other words, to determine which is "more believable") are you in fact contradicting the idea of faith by using reason at all?

I don't accept your premise. While religion does require faith, it also requires reason. Religion w/o reason is called superstition, and I don't subscribe to that or consider it something that advances humanity (quite the opposite).
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
steve218 said:
So you just believe in good morale? If thats the case, most of us do.

Right - though I'm not sure I would use the word "morals". However, you are correct in that is why I agree with any religion's meaning, but really no religion's political manifestations.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
I think part of being human is the experience of stepping out of my self. This is the momentary resolution of the conflict created by "identity" that is intrinsic in the use of language.

That's the uinifying human experience or the "cosmic religious feeling" as Einstein called it. And creating myths and metaphors to communicate that transcendent experience by providing words to share that experience with others is the purpose of every wisdom tradition (whether conventionally understood as "relgiion" or not). But in every tradition, I must guard against the device for sharing this experience (the signs) replacing the experience itself (the thing signified).

I find this "cosmic religious experience" being described in every tradition. I also find the path of mistaking the metaphor to describe it as the thing itself in every tradition.

From the referenced essay by Albert Einstein:

But there is a third stage of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form: I shall call it cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.

The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear at an early stage of development, e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learned especially from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer, contains a much stronger element of this.
The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another.


How can cosmic religious feeling be communicated from one person to another, if it can give rise to no definite notion of a God and no theology? In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it.


We thus arrive at a conception of the relation of science to religion very different from the usual one. When one views the matter historically, one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.
 

Faint

Well-Known Member
Booko said:
Okay, so if that's the case, if reason is shunned in matters of religion, why do you (if you're religious) choose your particular religion over any other?
I don't have a religion, but I suppose if you must choose something to roughly summarize my ethical views, it's hedonism.

Booko said:
Are you convinced your religion is more reasonable than another?
Hedonism isn't really a religion, but as a point of view it is very reasonable.

Booko said:
I don't accept your premise. While religion does require faith, it also requires reason. Religion w/o reason is called superstition, and I don't subscribe to that or consider it something that advances humanity (quite the opposite).
No, superstition is part of religion. But this is kind of my point. Even the religious are using reason (on a basic level) to select their particular religion. For example, one person might think God is more reasonable than Odin. But both are also contradicting themselves in thinking that anything supernatural is reasonable.

To quote Jayhawker Soule:
“It is delusional arrogance to presume that the term "reasonable god" is cognitively meaningful. What is the criteria for 'reasonableness' when applied to the Supernatural? Does your Supernatural Diety define "reasonableness"? Is it constrained by "reasonableness"? How do you know? Revelation? Deist decoder ring? I suggest that whatever intellectual superiority that might have been claimed by the Deists of the 18th century has long evaporated, leaving little more than naive projections about some God-of-the-Gaps.”
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Faint said:
Okay, so if that's the case, if reason is shunned in matters of religion, why do you (if you're religious) choose your particular religion over any other?

Are you convinced your religion is more reasonable than another? And if you use reason to distinguish between two religions (in other words, to determine which is "more believable") are you in fact contradicting the idea of faith by using reason at all?

why? Because it fits me better and rings truer then the others, although I find truth in many of the others, I feel like I've found my niche and where I am comfortable.

I choose it because it is right for me, but it might not be right for anyone else.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Faint said:
No, superstition is part of religion. But this is kind of my point. Even the religious are using reason (on a basic level) to select their particular religion. For example, one person might think God is more reasonable than Odin. But both are also contradicting themselves in thinking that anything supernatural is reasonable.

Your merely reasserting your premise does nothing to address the fact that I reject it.

You might at least ask on what grounds I reject your premise in the first place.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Booko said:
Your merely reasserting your premise does nothing to address the fact that I reject it.

You might at least ask on what grounds I reject your premise in the first place.
Maybe what Faint means is that the supernatural is part of religion. The supernatural is not part of all religions but the Supernatural, as in the More than Natural/Created, is part of the Abrahamic traditions at least.

2 c,
luna
 

lunamoth

Will to love
doppleganger said:
I think part of being human is the experience of stepping out of my self. This is the momentary resolution of the conflict created by "identity" that is intrinsic in the use of language.

That's the uinifying human experience or the "cosmic religious feeling" as Einstein called it. And creating myths and metaphors to communicate that transcendent experience by providing words to share that experience with others is the purpose of every wisdom tradition (whether conventionally understood as "relgiion" or not). But in every tradition, I must guard against the device for sharing this experience (the signs) replacing the experience itself (the thing signified).

I find this "cosmic religious experience" being described in every tradition. I also find the path of mistaking the metaphor to describe it as the thing itself in every tradition.

From the referenced essay by Albert Einstein:

Hi doppleganger, Do you think that the cosmic religious experience might also be described as overcoming a sense of alienation we have between each other and between ourselves and our universe?

Thank you for the Einstein essay; I had not seen that before.

lunamoth
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
lunamoth said:
Maybe what Faint means is that the supernatural is part of religion. The supernatural is not part of all religions but the Supernatural, as in the More than Natural/Created, is part of the Abrahamic traditions at least.

In which case, I'd point out that the metaphysical is not equivalent to superstition either.

I'd like to hear some specific examples of what he thinks is superstition in some religions.

I'm sure we'll agree that superstition is common enough in religions, but whether it's part of all of them or a necessary part of any of them is something yet to be determined.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
lunamoth said:
Hi doppleganger, Do you think that the cosmic religious experience might also be described as overcoming a sense of alienation we have between each other and between ourselves and our universe?

I think that's an excellent way to describe it. :yes:
 
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