Why Was Jesus' sacrifice necessary for forgiveness?

[MoonWater]

This thread stems from the belief that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of the world and in order to recieve forgivness one must believe in Jesus. What I'd like to see debated here is "Why was it necessary for Jesus, or anyone for that matter, to be sacrificed in order for God to forgive people?

 

[Captain Civic]

God needed to get over the fact that everyone went against Him (sin). His justice did just let Him forget it. Thus, he transferred all the punishment to one man, that ever has, is and will be, and dealt with it once and for all. He just so chose His son. Why? *shrug* To express love in its truest form, would be my guess.

 

[kai]

good question , and why do it in a remote outpost of the roman empire , so no one else can see.

i understand the blood sacrifice principle involved here but such a god could have done it a lot more spectacularly

 

[Cordoba]

God forgives all sins - directly - when a believer repents

He is The Most Merciful, The Forgiver of all sins

 

[Evandr]

These are good questions that have some very deep answers but I will paraphrase.

There are two major considerations when it comes to sin and justice.

First: mercy cannot rob justice, the demands of justice must be met or God would cease to be God.

Second: An individual guilty of sin cannot pay the eternal consequences of his own sin let alone the sins of others. Eternal consequences means endless consequences.

Jesus Christ was a sinless individual who went before the demands of justice and suffered the consequences of sin. Exactly how it was done I haven’t the foggiest idea but it did include suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross but it most certainly went much further in scope and range than that.

I will now make a statement that is an extreme over simplification but will put across the point. "Jesus Christ managed to tip the balance of sin vs. justice in his favor enabling him to open a second path to exaltation in the presence of God without denying the demands of justice." In other words the demands of justice were altered to allow for mercy but only upon the condition that the individual meet the requirements of Jesus Christ.

Don't get me wrong, justice will have it's due so that all creation can stand but now there are two paths to exaltation of which we have the chance to follow.

The first is we must be sinless; a goal that no man except Christ has ever met or ever will meet in mortality so that one is pretty much beyond everybody save Christ.

The second is to adhere to the commandments of Christ and thusly balance the scale back to a condition of perfect equity with justice while still affording mercy to the repentant person and the opportunity for exaltation.

Mind you all that the path established by Christ and acceptable to meet all the ends of the law is straight and narrow and precisely defined by Christ. Making your own rules won't cut it and a person that does not answer the call of Christ and keep his commandments precisely will have to suffer even as Christ did, the only difference being that that suffering will be eternal.

Keeping Christ's commandments means making sure you know exactly what they are and finding that out requires a level of humility and diligence often spoke of by Jesus Himself. The way is not necessarily hard, it just means becoming as a little child before our Heavenly Father.
Can you do that?

 

[kai]

so what changed after the crucifiction ? did anything on the mortal plain , or the planet earth change, all theorise if you wish but the world went on without him , oh christianity was born from an amalgam of beleifs but but apart from a new beleif ststem coming into the world what really changed.

 

[Cordoba]

As God is a Just God, would it just to punish Jesus, peace be upon him, for the sins of others?

From a Muslim perspective, we believe that God saved Jesus from that horrible death on the cross. Someone else was crucified by mistake. It was not Jesus

God does not need Jesus to suffer in order to forgive the sins of mankind

He directly forgives the sins of those who repent, as He is The Most Merciful, The Forgiver of all sins

 

[MoonWater]

These are good questions that have some very deep answers but I will paraphrase.

There are two major considerations when it comes to sin and justice.

First: mercy cannot rob justice, the demands of justice must be met or God would cease to be God.

Second: An individual guilty of sin cannot pay the eternal consequences of his own sin let alone the sins of others. Eternal consequences means endless consequences.

Jesus Christ was a sinless individual who went before the demands of justice and suffered the consequences of sin. Exactly how it was done I haven’t the foggiest idea but it did include suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross but it most certainly went much further in scope and range than that.

I will now make a statement that is an extreme over simplification but will put across the point. "Jesus Christ managed to tip the balance of sin vs. justice in his favor enabling him to open a second path to exaltation in the presence of God without denying the demands of justice." In other words the demands of justice were altered to allow for mercy but only upon the condition that the individual meet the requirements of Jesus Christ.

Don't get me wrong, justice will have it's due so that all creation can stand but now there are two paths to exaltation of which we have the chance to follow.

The first is we must be sinless; a goal that no man except Christ has ever met or ever will meet in mortality so that one is pretty much beyond everybody save Christ.

The second is to adhere to the commandments of Christ and thusly balance the scale back to a condition of perfect equity with justice while still affording mercy to the repentant person and the opportunity for exaltation.

Mind you all that the path established by Christ and acceptable to meet all the ends of the law is straight and narrow and precisely defined by Christ. Making your own rules won't cut it and a person that does not answer the call of Christ and keep his commandments precisely will have to suffer even as Christ did, the only difference being that that suffering will be eternal.

Keeping Christ's commandments means making sure you know exactly what they are and finding that out requires a level of humility and diligence often spoke of by Jesus Himself. The way is not necessarily hard, it just means becoming as a little child before our Heavenly Father.
Can you do that?

I understand the need for Justice but why must that involve eternal punishment?

 

[Francine]

"Why was it necessary for Jesus, or anyone for that matter, to be sacrificed in order for God to forgive people?

Because humanity is a network, and just as the sin of one man (Adam) brought all of us down, the obedience of one man (Jesus) opens the way to forgiveness for all. Adam's localized position at the beginning of the network renders his universal power to cause a general fall. The Son of God's delocalized position as the Eucharistic Christ renders his universal power to cause a general redemption.

 

[Evandr]

I understand the need for Justice but why must that involve eternal punishment?

I think the big misunderstanding here is the nature of what is being received as punishment, who is inflicting it and why is it eternal.

Most people's concept of punishment is that which is inflicted by someone against our desire because of our transgression of some law, a punishment that could have an end if that person would simply stop inflicting it.

The transgression part is correct but just who inflicts the punishment is another matter all together.

Punishment is eternal because God is eternal and thusly so are we his children. As mere mortals we cannot grasp the grandeur of what is possible for those who prove worthy to receive all that our Heavenly Father has in store for them. It is great authority possessing great power to be a member of God's eternal family with all the rights, privileges, and abilities that our Heavenly Father possesses; it is our ultimate goal; it is exaltation in the presence of, and with God; it has been our goal from the beginning of life in the pre mortal sphere; we have spent countless millennia as spirit children preparing to receive a physical body (the same as our Heavenly Father) and the capability to receive these unimaginably grand abilities.

This earth life is the final proving ground whereon we will prove our metal and whether we are capable of handling such blessings without faltering because of lack of character or ability. Such faltering would carry eternal implications that would encompass others in our realm of majesty. These blessings are grand but they come with requirements. We must become as perfect as God is perfect (the accomplishment of which cannot be done in mortality, only started) or wisdom, mercy, and justice would all demand that we be denied the right to stand at the helms of such power for it would be within our ability to destroy all creation within our sphere of influence and the intelligences therein.

If a person, after having been prepared for so many millennia fails to measure up here during their mortal probation, the denial of these blessing for eternity is a justifiable result because that person has proven that they are incapable of the perfect character needed and any further trial or training, worlds without end, would not change anything.

The punishment is not a result of God or anybody else inflicting pain onto us, it is mental anguish so great that it is compared to a lake of fire and brimstone (not a literal reality of such as many believe). We will inflict this punishment upon ourselves because of our failure. Lucifer is currently suffering such anguish of soul; he is not literally sitting in some fire somewhere.

God will provide a place for all humanity, that is to say all his children who have ever lived in mortality (save a few incapable of any degree of repentance as were Lucifer and his followers and thusly are cast out to become sons of perdition) that is grand beyond our ability to comprehend it because we kept our first estate and did not follow Satan out of the realms of God, however, for many of mankind forward progression will be damned (like a river is damned).

The knowledge of such a failure after coming so far and being so close and seeing how easy it would have been to succeed (if only we had kept Christ's simple commandments without trying twist them to our own liking) will harrow up our souls forever because were are eternal in nature, such mental anguish will encompass the very definition of Hell. Our Heavenly Father always has and always will do the very best for us that He can but ultimately it is ourselves that will determine how far we can go and how much, if any, we will suffer.

 

[doppelganger]

If you come from a culture that primarily features "Christianity" and you can't forgive yourself, then yes, Jesus's sacrifice is likely to be internalized as necessary for forgiveness.

 

[PureX]

This thread stems from the belief that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of the world and in order to recieve forgivness one must believe in Jesus. What I'd like to see debated here is "Why was it necessary for Jesus, or anyone for that matter, to be sacrificed in order for God to forgive people?

It wasn't.

Jesus was killed because some people didn't want to hear what he was saying. They didn't want to believe that God could be reflected in anyone, because that erased all the illusions of religious elitism that were giving them wealth and power. Jesus was not killed because God demanded any blood bribe for his forgiveness. That, too, was another lie of religion, meant to establish a hierarchy of righteousness that the priests could exploit. God, like Jesus, forgave us all of everything. That was always the "good news".

 

[Mr Spinkles]

What I'd like to see debated here is "Why was it necessary for Jesus, or anyone for that matter, to be sacrificed in order for God to forgive people?

Maybe it is because, if you are a 1st century Christian apologist, you need to explain to your future converts why your leader was killed in a way that makes it seem like a victory for your message. The concept of blood-sacrifice as a method of gaining favor with the divine is a ready solution, already popular in pagan cults.

 

[McBell]

"Where would Christianity be if Jesus got eight to fifteen years with time off for good behavior?"
Senator James Donovan

 

[brainwrite]

This thread stems from the belief that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sins of the world and in order to recieve forgivness one must believe in Jesus. What I'd like to see debated here is "Why was it necessary for Jesus, or anyone for that matter, to be sacrificed in order for God to forgive people?

With this post and your other post on forgiveness, you have hit the core dilemma of Christianity. Any honest Christian who investigates their faith will ultimately come to MoonWater's question. Here is the issue as it came to me personally:

Wouldn't we ultimately learn MORE from correcting our OWN errors than having someone else do it for us?

I still don't have an answer. My experience with God inside my LDS Faith is sufficient to pay the ransom for this unanswered question. I personally do everything I can to correct my own errors with God's help.

BUT...I have FAITH in Christ's Atonement. I think here is where you might explore for relief. Maybe just try believing that, while you may not understand fully today, some day your faith in Christ will come in handy.

That said, I really like evandr's two responses on page 1. They're quite persuasive, especially when it's so easy to take the affirmative on this debate. I would love to hear further ideas on the matter.

 

[Evandr]

God needed to get over the fact that everyone went against Him (sin). His justice did just let Him forget it. Thus, he transferred all the punishment to one man, that ever has, is and will be, and dealt with it once and for all. He just so chose His son. Why? *shrug* To express love in its truest form, would be my guess.

I agree that it would appear that you are correct but you are not considering a few important points.

While on earth we are stripped of knowledge of pre-mortal existence and thusly we have lost the incentive to walk the paths of righteousness because we fear the loss of the reward. In such a vulnerable state our true character is left bare to be tested to see if we will do everything we are commanded without the sure incentive of gain. Lucifer has been granted limited powers to tempt and to test us. It’s a perfect plan.

This test of mortality is more for our own understanding and knowledge. We will have a perfect knowledge of the eternal condition of our character so we will never be able to repudiate the judgments God; after all, our Heavenly Father already knows exactly how it will all pan out.

One of the hardest concepts about our Heavenly Father to comprehend is that He is subject to his own laws and by his own decrees He cannot be unjust. It would be like committing suicide and taking all creation with him.

So that begs a question "Why?" Why is God bound by anything?

Another question is "What makes God "God", why is his word law and why do the elements obey him?

I submit to you that the key phrase here is "Obey Him". God is "God" because he is obeyed as such. This opens the field wide to the concept that it was not our Heavenly Father for whom Jesus was atoning our sins; it was the demands of justice perpetuated by whatever it is that makes our Heavenly Father "God". Whatever it is, the concept of intelligence must be applied because obeying someone requires there be a considered response to a command and that implies intelligence.

Christ's sacrifice opened the door for our Heavenly Father to be able to forgive our sins but only if we keep Christ's commandments.

What does it mean to be forgiven? It means that our Heavenly Father is free to extend the blessings of exaltation and eternal life to those forgiven, something I'm sure he desperately wants to do for all his children but cannot save for those who make themselves worthy.

Christ chose his path of his own free will and left the Glory to the Father while Lucifer chose a different path, seeking to usurp the glory of the Father unto himself and was cast out of the presence of the Father.

Our Heavenly Father did not need to "Get Over" anything. He was simply faced with a dilemma of how to prove the character of his children on an individual basis knowing they would become subject to the demands of justice, by their faltering in the battles of the test, and still be able to offer them the mercy afforded by a path back to his presence without denying justice. The plan was and is perfect.

The requirement to walk a certain path back to the presence of the Father is not removed from us by Christ’s atonement. We must still prove out character and keep the commandments of Jesus Christ because no one can save us, no- not even our all powerful and omnipotent Heavenly Father, so long as justice has claim on us.