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Why we don't have free will using logic

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
You keep making it sound like I'm saying that I know for certain that we cannot be certain about things, but that's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying we cannot be certain about anything, not even about our lack of certainty.
Okay, you cannot be certain...?:
  1. Maybe... we cannot be certain that awareness is what it seems to be; or maybe... we can be certain that awareness is what it seems to be.
  2. Therefore, maybe... we cannot be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge; or maybe... we can be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge.
You really didn't argue anything at all, because you aren't asserting that anything is or is not the case. It maybe is or maybe isn't.
But then you are saying that you (royal "we") cannot be certain about anything... so are you uncertain? And if so, how do you know that you are uncertain? And if you don't know that you are uncertain, then what do you mean when you say that you cannot be certain about your lack of certainty?

Without having faith, a lack of certainty in even a lack of certainty (that self-consuming reasoning) does occur, preventing even thoughts from forming due to a lack of structure, but that's why I have faith. In other words, to even have this conversation with me, to even be thinking right now as you are requires faith, so therefore it requires faith to examine our faith because our foundation is faith based.
You defined faith as "belief in something without evidence", which (for the record) I don't accept as a definition of faith.
But even supposing that you have belief without evidence, I don't follow your argument here. A lack of certainty in a lack of certainty is self-consuming regardless.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
Okay, you cannot be certain...?:
  1. Maybe... we cannot be certain that awareness is what it seems to be; or maybe... we can be certain that awareness is what it seems to be.
  2. Therefore, maybe... we cannot be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge; or maybe... we can be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge.
You really didn't argue anything at all, because you aren't asserting that anything is or is not the case. It maybe is or maybe isn't.
But then you are saying that you (royal "we") cannot be certain about anything... so are you uncertain? And if so, how do you know that you are uncertain? And if you don't know that you are uncertain, then what do you mean when you say that you cannot be certain about your lack of certainty?


You defined faith as "belief in something without evidence", which (for the record) I don't accept as a definition of faith.
But even supposing that you have belief without evidence, I don't follow your argument here. A lack of certainty in a lack of certainty is self-consuming regardless.
Having a lack of certainty to the degree I'm saying actually prevents thoughts from forming unless we have faith. Faith is simply natural for us to do, and it's what we are actually doing right now, and what we have always done. From your perspective, that's not what we're doing, so that's why you're getting confused. If you switch out knowing with having faith, then you'll understand what my view is.

In other words, I am making the argument that we [already] use faith, not that we [should] use faith. What you are doing is removing [knowing anything and nothing], and not filling it in with having faith, which then results in my argument not making sense.

Through faith, I have decided that this life is one that makes sense, through faith, I believe in logic, etc. And I do this, because I have faith that it is because I was born without evidence, which prevented me from having resistance in rejecting what I learned.

Just think about it, say that as a child your parents told you that Santa Clause actually exists, would you then argue, "No he doesn't because that's ridiculous" when you lack the faith-based knowledge to think that's ridiculous? You wouldn't, you would have no basis to do so if this life is one that makes sense.

If what I'm saying is wrong, then prove to me with 100% certainty that this life must make sense, that it's not just our subjective desire to want this life to make sense that we have no resistance in believing is wrong.
+++
My argument is intended to go into the direction of thoughts being unable to form without faith, it is not meant to be taken literally, as you have been doing (since it can't be typed out in a way that conveys such uncertainty). It is to help people look inward and realize they have been using faith all this time.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Having a lack of certainty to the degree I'm saying actually prevents thoughts from forming unless we have faith. Faith is simply natural for us to do, and it's what we are actually doing right now, and what we have always done. From your perspective, that's not what we're doing, so that's why you're getting confused. If you switch out knowing with having faith, then you'll understand what my view is.

In other words, I am making the argument that we [already] use faith, not that we [should] use faith. What you are doing is removing [knowing anything and nothing], and not filling it in with having faith, which then results in my argument not making sense.

Through faith, I have decided that this life is one that makes sense, through faith, I believe in logic, etc. And I do this, because I have faith that it is because I was born without evidence, which prevented me from having resistance in rejecting what I learned.

Just think about it, say that as a child your parents told you that Santa Clause actually exists, would you then argue, "No he doesn't because that's ridiculous" when you lack the faith-based knowledge to think that's ridiculous? You wouldn't, you would have no basis to do so if this life is one that makes sense.

If what I'm saying is wrong, then prove to me with 100% certainty that this life must make sense, that it's not just our subjective desire to want this life to make sense that we have no resistance in believing is wrong.
+++
My argument is intended to go into the direction of thoughts being unable to form without faith, it is not meant to be taken literally, as you have been doing (since it can't be typed out in a way that conveys such uncertainty). It is to help people look inward and realize they have been using faith all this time.
When we talk, especially in spontaneous conversations with friends, we do not have to consciously form sentences or even prepare what we will say. This is all processed at an unconscious level, and then fed to the verbal output device; mouth. We do not have to consciously write down a script, like we do for a speech, yet all the words and the grammar are correct, including emotional inflections and body language; heated political debate with our peers.

Often in political arguments, we bounced opposing ideas off each other, with the opposing idea, almost like a command line that triggers our unconscious mind to reprocess our memory, in response, leading to connected verbal output. One may even come up with a new or clever argument, you never heard before. Actually the unconscious did that for you, with you; ego, taking credit.

This process of the ego, with the unconscious processing help of the inner self, reminds me of the line in the classic movie, "Wizard of Oz", where the scarecrow says he wants a brain. Dorothy asks him, "How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?" The Scarecrow: "I don't know! But some people without brains do an *awful* lot of talking, don't they?" Dorothy, "I suppose they do." The ego has faith that the brain will do the data crunching and the verbal organization for them. The ego goes for the ride and enjoys listening to themselves; inner self.

There are times, when we meet strangers or are in professional situations, we try to not be too spontaneous, and allow the motor mouth to stay fully on cruise control. Rather we will pause the output; disengage cruise control, so we can filter what we might say. In this case, we have two opposing forces. One is the more spontaneous; unconscious data stream ready to output, and second is a conscious dam, to allow our processed thoughts to collect, so we can filtrate before we release. This can take seconds. It is one thing to be fully open with close friends and even swear and/or be insultingly funny. However, this clever spontaneity may not be appropriate in a professional situation. We pause for an instant, at the interface between ego will and unconscious processing determinism; two opposing forces.

A conscience, is like a dam maker, that is used to dam and then filter spontaneous speech and thought. This builds will power, since it provides a force of resistance, against a natural unconscious spontaneous force wire for thought processing output. Some people without will power and self censor, do an awful lot of crap talking.

Atheism does not see the need to develop a proper conscience, since morality is assumed to be relative. They prefer be more spontaneous, and therefore many will conclude there is no will and choice. Older school people, have known for a long time that will and choice is something you need to develop through practice. Conscience temporary wall building is how you practice. If you are taught not to practice or that these dams are relative to the political climate and the needs of boot licking; PC, there is no natural structure; earthen dams, just manmade dams. Using classic earthen dam techniques, eventually, your memory and your spontaneous unconscious processing are restructured and then faith become acceptance of the high road output; less shadow contamination and a cleaner determinism stream.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Having a lack of certainty to the degree I'm saying actually prevents thoughts from forming unless we have faith. Faith is simply natural for us to do, and it's what we are actually doing right now, and what we have always done. From your perspective, that's not what we're doing, so that's why you're getting confused. If you switch out knowing with having faith, then you'll understand what my view is.
In what way is faith required for thoughts to form?

In other words, I am making the argument that we [already] use faith, not that we [should] use faith.
Are you trying to Beg the Question? Asserting a claim about faith first... and then using that claim as your conclusion.

Through faith, I have decided that this life is one that makes sense
You decided that?

through faith, I believe in logic, etc.
?
And I do this, because I have faith that it is because I was born without evidence, which prevented me from having resistance in rejecting what I learned.
You were born without evidence?

Just think about it, say that as a child your parents told you that Santa Clause actually exists, would you then argue, "No he doesn't because that's ridiculous" when you lack the faith-based knowledge to think that's ridiculous? You wouldn't, you would have no basis to do so if this life is one that makes sense.
I don't see what making or not making sense has to do with it.

If what I'm saying is wrong, then prove to me with 100% certainty that this life must make sense, that it's not just our subjective desire to want this life to make sense that we have no resistance in believing is wrong.
What do you mean "make sense"?

My argument is intended to go into the direction of thoughts being unable to form without faith, it is not meant to be taken literally, as you have been doing (since it can't be typed out in a way that conveys such uncertainty). It is to help people look inward and realize they have been using faith all this time.
Hm. Is this philosophy or something else?

Okay... you are having a thought, that you have dubbed "such uncertainty" and you claim that you cannot type out this thought in a way that conveys it. Is there any means by which you can convey "such uncertainty"? Or is this a hopeless endeavor?
 

Echogem222

Active Member
In what way is faith required for thoughts to form?


Are you trying to Beg the Question? Asserting a claim about faith first... and then using that claim as your conclusion.


You decided that?


?

You were born without evidence?


I don't see what making or not making sense has to do with it.


What do you mean "make sense"?


Hm. Is this philosophy or something else?

Okay... you are having a thought, that you have dubbed "such uncertainty" and you claim that you cannot type out this thought in a way that conveys it. Is there any means by which you can convey "such uncertainty"? Or is this a hopeless endeavor?
Just forget it, this conversation is clearly going nowhere at this point.
 

FredVB

Member
Having a lack of certainty to the degree I'm saying actually prevents thoughts from forming unless we have faith. Faith is simply natural for us to do, and it's what we are actually doing right now, and what we have always done. From your perspective, that's not what we're doing, so that's why you're getting confused. If you switch out knowing with having faith, then you'll understand what my view is.

In other words, I am making the argument that we [already] use faith, not that we [should] use faith. What you are doing is removing [knowing anything and nothing], and not filling it in with having faith, which then results in my argument not making sense.

Through faith, I have decided that this life is one that makes sense, through faith, I believe in logic, etc. And I do this, because I have faith that it is because I was born without evidence, which prevented me from having resistance in rejecting what I learned.

Just think about it, say that as a child your parents told you that Santa Clause actually exists, would you then argue, "No he doesn't because that's ridiculous" when you lack the faith-based knowledge to think that's ridiculous? You wouldn't, you would have no basis to do so if this life is one that makes sense.

If what I'm saying is wrong, then prove to me with 100% certainty that this life must make sense, that it's not just our subjective desire to want this life to make sense that we have no resistance in believing is wrong.
+++
My argument is intended to go into the direction of thoughts being unable to form without faith, it is not meant to be taken literally, as you have been doing (since it can't be typed out in a way that conveys such uncertainty). It is to help people look inward and realize they have been using faith all this time.
There is a distinction relevant to this between inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning. We do know things but really any of it is from inductive reasoning before we get to what is known through deduction. That is really very reliable, but what we know from that is only right when we are right with what is known that is inductive. Things like math work, because we can count. With numbers named, when we count and don't make a mistake, which can be caught, we get the same answer for any one thing being counted, and dividing them, counting them separately, and adding will always come to the same answer. More complexity can be put into it, and the math works still. Answers are absolutely reliable with math done right, we know that better than we know almost anything. But logic is quite like that, while with use of premises ultimately known from induction, and we depend on the reliability of what we know things from. So much is reliable we can say we do know things from induction, and have logic with deduction from that. Humility calls for recognition that we would very possibly be wrong about some things, but we would still be right about most things, and if we reason well with caring to use what we find the very most reliable, and math certainly is, we would be right about most things by far. In this qualified way we do really know things.
 

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
There is a distinction relevant to this between inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning. We do know things but really any of it is from inductive reasoning before we get to what is known through deduction. That is really very reliable, but what we know from that is only right when we are right with what is known that is inductive. Things like math work, because we can count. With numbers named, when we count and don't make a mistake, which can be caught, we get the same answer for any one thing being counted, and dividing them, counting them separately, and adding will always come to the same answer. More complexity can be put into it, and the math works still. Answers are absolutely reliable with math done right, we know that better than we know almost anything. But logic is quite like that, while with use of premises ultimately known from induction, and we depend on the reliability of what we know things from. So much is reliable we can say we do know things from induction, and have logic with deduction from that. Humility calls for recognition that we would very possibly be wrong about some things, but we would still be right about most things, and if we reason well with caring to use what we find the very most reliable, and math certainly is, we would be right about most things by far. In this qualified way we do really know things.

The entire thrust of this debate may be said to boil down to epistemology. And one's limitations. If this is agreed upon by the majority then it would stand to reason that we are living in what some idealists call materialistic illusion. That's my simplistic view of this discussion.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The Logic of free will, works, if you use the correct data. The most important data is, we have two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. These do not have to agree but work better when they do. The inner self is connected to natural instinct, which might give me a deterministic hunger urge. The ego, can resist this urge or postpone it with will and choice.

An animal is more deterministic, since they only have one center; inner self but no ego. The hunger urge and instinct are deterministic. The human ego add more choices. When the Bible speaks of former man and his having will and choice, this has to with the evolution of the ego. Adam had the first ego, which is new to evolution. The pre-humans only had an inner self but human DNA.

Just as looking through two eyes allows us to see in 3-D; gives depth, two centers of consciousness allows for a more 3-D view that can exceed the deterministic cause and effect of just one center. Two centers is how will power works.

An interesting experiment to experience the inner self in action is to have someone agree to scare you when you have your guard down. They can plan and wait, to get you good. If they do get you good, people often scream, yelp and awkwardly defend. This is embarrassing to the ego and it is funny to watch. Normally the ego prefers to block out this inner self feedback, but in this case the inner self and instinct is faster than the ego will and reacts first. But since this action is not what the ego would do it; prefer look cool and clam, its lack of willpower, due to the deterministic speed of the inner self can be embarrassing, unless it makes you look like a Kung Fu master. The ego will accept credit for that.

Say you had two people; husband and wife, who have different needs and wants. You decide to go out to ear but cannot agree. Both may feel deterministic hunger, but what and where to eat is another story, that takes negotiations and even comprise; a less desirable determinism. If you have only one person and one center, this is harder to see as will power. Two or more people or centers makes the difference.
 

FredVB

Member
The entire thrust of this debate may be said to boil down to epistemology. And one's limitations. If this is agreed upon by the majority then it would stand to reason that we are living in what some idealists call materialistic illusion. That's my simplistic view of this discussion.

If we can concede there is true reality, we just don't know so much about it, that can be true. Just about everyone, if it is not actually everyone, is believing false things, being mistaken about some things, that has their reality being an illusion. This does not make inductive reasoning and applying deduction from that less valuable for us. We just might lessen where we are mistaken a bit by learning more and more, but we would interfere with that closing ourselves off to some who would speak of things we do not already agree with. Nothing we have is so certain to be secure enough to not consider other things. It is well for us to keep learning, I have found that to be the case.
 

FredVB

Member
We can be sure of some things but what there is of that is a very small bit of all reality. Life is still interesting this way. There is always more to learn, with us actually learning real things, that is possible. Part of learning still is recognizing where we were deceived in something previously. We only grow that way.
 
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