why would anybody want to be catholic?

[ChristineES]

After going through this and other threads, I've come to the conclusion that we're all looking for an opportunity to attack 'other' religious communities and ethnic groups. The other is always wrong, and we're always right. The other is evil, and we're good. And the moment an opportunity comes up, we generalize and feel good about ourselves.

A lot of people are that way, but not everyone. Some people don't need to build themselves up by putting down others.

 

[Chisti]

A lot of people are that way, but not everyone. Some people don't need to build themselves up by putting down others.

Maybe in your culture. In eastern cultures (especially non-Islamic ones), this attitude of putting others down is so common that it's almost become a cultural norm.

 

[Father Heathen]

Sorry, but I can't help but find the idea of letting some kooky geezers in silly hats, who presume to speak on god's behalf, dictate your morality and how you live your life a little silly. I find it even more silly to remain blindly obedient to them even after they've attempted to cover up countless cases of child rape. Don't you think that would make their claim of moral authority a little suspect? How can something remain an exemplar of righteousness while perpetuating some of the most evil acts one could commit? Do people really require something so foul and corrupt to serve as the mediator between man and god?

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Sorry, but I can't help but find the idea of letting some kooky geezers in silly hats, who presume to speak on god's behalf, dictate your morality and how you live your life a little silly. I find it even more silly to remain blindly obedient to them even after they've attempted to cover up countless cases of child rape. Don't you think that would make their claim of moral authority a little suspect? How can something remain an exemplar of righteousness while perpetuating some of the most evil acts one could commit? Do people really require something so foul and corrupt to serve as the mediator between man and god?

You speak as if the pedophiles remain thereafter. I guess we should take our children out of school and have them wear hazmat suits .
It's the Church. They have to maintain the godly ordeal of absolution.

 

[Kathryn]

Sorry, but I can't help but find the idea of letting some kooky geezers in silly hats, who presume to speak on god's behalf, dictate your morality and how you live your life a little silly. I find it even more silly to remain blindly obedient to them even after they've attempted to cover up countless cases of child rape. Don't you think that would make their claim of moral authority a little suspect? How can something remain an exemplar of righteousness while perpetuating some of the most evil acts one could commit? Do people really require something so foul and corrupt to serve as the mediator between man and god?

Priests and bishops are human and sinners just as much as any of us, and Catholics know that. As for the Pope, he is too, and the only time his words are considered infallible is when he speaks "ex cathedra" which is exceedingly rare.

They are THEOLOGIANS and pastors, not non human angels. Of course, just as any other pastor, their congregations have the right to expect them to live as exemplary life as possible, and of course they are expected to be spiritual leaders. Most priests are just that - pastors who are sincerely serving their congregations while struggling with their own human weaknesses just like the rest of us.

And most Catholics understand this, just as most protestants or buddhists or muslims or whoever understand that their leaders are human.

This is not excusing criminal behavior IN THE LEAST. This response is not addressing pedophilia among 4% of the priesthood in any way. I am merely addressing the charge that a coverup by a minority invalidates the work and integrity of the whole priesthood.

 

[Father Heathen]

You speak as if the pedophiles remain thereafter.

Unless the law gets their hands on them, they tend to be merely moved to other parishes where they continue to prey on children.

I guess we should take our children out of school and have them wear hazmat suits .

Teachers pose a far, far, far less threat to children than priests do. (Even if a priest doesn't touch a kid, they still poison their mind. )

It's the Church. They have to maintain the godly ordeal of absolution.

"absolution" isn't suppose to include hiding crimes (while perpetuating them) from the law, does it? Justice should never be undermined by silly hocus pocus.

 

[Autodidact]

Your view is a bit skewed there Kutulu. I actually work for a Catholic institution interacting daily with many wonderful priests and nuns there. While there are obvious and serious issues going on involving a number of the clergy, its just not that extreme to where you can point out in confidence that half the clergy are pedophiles. The figure in question is closer to 4% of clergy involved last I checked. Roughly 4,392 priests accused out of an overall figure of 109,694 at the time the allegations broke.

It's not so much the 4% of the priests, it's the entire enormous, powerful church hierarchy, from the bishops up the pope, who conspired to protect them and provide them continued access to victims for 60 years. That's what's disturbing. It's clear where their priorities were.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is not excusing criminal behavior IN THE LEAST. This response is not addressing pedophilia among 4% of the priesthood in any way. I am merely addressing the charge that a coverup by a minority invalidates the work and integrity of the whole priesthood.

The big issue for me is that "the minority" you speak of includes much of the leadership of that whole priesthood.

Also, in the Christian context, according to the Gospels, when Jesus talked about how to tell a true messenger of God from a false one, he said that a good tree does not bear bad fruit. If systemic rape of children isn't bad fruit, then I don't know what is.

 

[Autodidact]

About four percent of the general public are pedophiles.
Pedophilia - New World Encyclopedia

About four percent of the Catholic priest are pedophiles.
Catholic sex abuse cases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

About four percent of teachers are pedophiles.
CPIU: Statistics

Here's the difference. If a teacher is accused of having sex with a pupil, the principal doesn't hide the information, transfer him to another district, and stonewall the police. 10,000 times. For decades.

Also, the priest is in a unique position not only of trust, but of power. He is an intermediary between the parishioner and God, with a position of guidance and influence over the individual's immortal soul. This gives the priest unique, extraordinary power, as well as trust, and makes abuse of that power and trust worse than even other trusted and powerful roles.

Finally, there is no worldwide, wealthy, powerful institution defending the local teacher when he's caught, protecting and promoting him, and providing him with a fresh school full of victims for him to abuse.

 

[Autodidact]

I wouldn't stop believing in my religion if a bunch of people representing it started to commit terrible crimes. In other words, what other humans do has no bearing on whether I agree with the philosophy of my religion.

So if I were a Catholic, the decision to remain one or convert would not be decided by what some random priests do.

It's not the priests; it's the church. It's not the abuse, it's the response to the abuse.

I think the Church's response to these crimes has itself been criminal. Basically, for at least half a century (that we know of) the church functioned in effect as a global criminal conspiracy to facilitate and defend child sexual predators.

And chances are it went on for a few centuries before that.

 

[sojourner]

Sorry, but I can't help but find the idea of letting some kooky geezers in silly hats, who presume to speak on god's behalf, dictate your morality and how you live your life a little silly. I find it even more silly to remain blindly obedient to them even after they've attempted to cover up countless cases of child rape. Don't you think that would make their claim of moral authority a little suspect? How can something remain an exemplar of righteousness while perpetuating some of the most evil acts one could commit? Do people really require something so foul and corrupt to serve as the mediator between man and god?

Look at the Bible! This is nothing new! God works within humanity. Cain was a murderer. David was an adulterer. Jacob was a thief and a liar. Jospeh was an opportunist. Rahab was a prostitute. So was Mary Magdalene. Zaccheus was a tax collector. Peter denied Jesus. Paul committed genocide. Why is it, after all, so silly to look to them as mediators when they're fully human like the rest of us? Wouldn't it be sillier to expect people in public office to be squeaky clean? None of us really are...

 

[Autodidact]

Here's the thing though: Whether it's a drunkard or a pedaphile, the Church has to be a shining example of the Bible. If this goes against laws, then they are going to silence it as much as possible and handle it the way the Bible commands.
Like I said, they are between a rock and a hard place.

What it really comes down to is the screaming moral cries of atheistic people. These antics hurt more than they fix. Remove the pedophiles and be done with it. Trying to burn down the Church is stupid.

Actually, the loudest screaming moral cries came from the poor Catholic victims. That's who has led this courageous fight to impose law on the Catholic Church.

 

[sojourner]

Teachers pose a far, far, far less threat to children than priests do. (Even if a priest doesn't touch a kid, they still poison their mind. )

Inflammatory, immaterial, and bad form.

 

[Autodidact]

So if a pedophile is caught at a school, should schools across the world get the finger? Do schools become less adequate?

What should happen is, the authorities in charge should fire the perpetrator and report the crime to law enforcement authorities. The church instead hid the crime, transferred the offender, and refused to disclose their records to law enforcement. Thus they became complicit in the criminal conspiracy.

 

[Autodidact]

You speak as if the pedophiles remain thereafter. I guess we should take our children out of school and have them wear hazmat suits .
It's the Church. They have to maintain the godly ordeal of absolution.

They don't have to do everything in their power to prevent criminal prosecution of crimes. And they don't have to refuse to compensate the victims until they get sued.

 

[Autodidact]

Priests and bishops are human and sinners just as much as any of us, and Catholics know that. As for the Pope, he is too, and the only time his words are considered infallible is when he speaks "ex cathedra" which is exceedingly rare.

They are THEOLOGIANS and pastors, not non human angels. Of course, just as any other pastor, their congregations have the right to expect them to live as exemplary life as possible, and of course they are expected to be spiritual leaders. Most priests are just that - pastors who are sincerely serving their congregations while struggling with their own human weaknesses just like the rest of us.

And most Catholics understand this, just as most protestants or buddhists or muslims or whoever understand that their leaders are human.

This is not excusing criminal behavior IN THE LEAST. This response is not addressing pedophilia among 4% of the priesthood in any way. I am merely addressing the charge that a coverup by a minority invalidates the work and integrity of the whole priesthood.

The church itself, the institution, the power structure, used its enormous power and wealth not to uncover the criminals and report them to the authorities, but to shield them from any consequences and provide them access to dozens of more victims. This happened all over the world, in every country, not just a few. Today it is coming to light in Mexico. The church itself committed these crimes--conspiracy and obstruction of justice. The only thing that wrought any change was subjecting the church to secular legal authority.

 

[ChristineES]

Blaming pedophilia on all or most Catholics is like blaming serial killers on all men- kind of silly.
And mainstream Catholics don't tell the religious leaders what to do and who to pardon or what to cover up. You may as well blame all American citizens for what a few politicians in Washington do, that would be the same thing.

 

[Autodidact]

Blaming pedophilia on all or most Catholics is like blaming serial killers on all men- kind of silly.
And mainstream Catholics don't tell the religious leaders what to do and who to pardon or what to cover up. You may as well blame all American citizens for what a few politicians in Washington do, that would be the same thing.

It's not all or most Catholics. Ordinary Catholics had nothing to do with it. It's the Catholic Church--the institution.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

It's not all or most Catholics. Ordinary Catholics had nothing to do with it. It's the Catholic Church--the institution.

Or.. maybe it's just the pedophiles themselves.

 

[LuisDantas]

Or.. maybe it's just the pedophiles themselves.

What bugs me is how lenient the institution has been when they learned of the facts.