Why would anyone want the Christan God to be real?

[asketikos]

no, it doesn't. because your explanation does not include as to why
so many religious people believe the bible is to be taken literally...



so explain to me why such a miniscule group of people think
ID should be taught in schools and do so...where able to stop stem cell research...and advocate for the unconstitutional defense of marriage act?




tell me what developed country teaches ID in their schools? exercises capital punishment, and infringes on the civil rights of same sex marriages?

The Global View Of Gay Marriage - CBS News



who are against the use of birth control and divorce...care to restate?



i'm not sure i understand you point here...
the approach to the christian religion is subjected to the bibles interpretation of a bronze age to medieval ideal of god...
if god were real, why would anyone want it to be like the christian god?
lets read the quote...
"Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins

are you really surprised that dawkins came up with these attributes after reading the bible?
are you really going to stand there and say that the majority of the christian followers in this country, in particular, do not take the bible at face value?



all those attributes are attributed to the christian god from reading the christian bible.



well to be honest i wasn't trying to back up any book
just giving my opinion based on life experience..

you might have seen this...but if you haven't and have an hour to kill at some point..i highly recommend this...

[youtube]9RExQFZzHXQ[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RExQFZzHXQ

i understand perfectly what you're saying, but you have it wrong i believe,

yes it is wrong that a small fanatical religious group sets the course in this country - i agree

religion is a simple way of leading many people who are not very well educated

nevertheless, the issue is not a social one that we are debating, it is a philosophical one, about the Christian concept of God and not about people's interpretation of the Bible

-abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage etc. . . . . these are PEOPLE's interpretation of the BIBLE, not of God. Also, there are many gay Christians, and it doesn't seem to bother them, are many gay Catholics, even out priests and bishops, so what is your point? there is no contradiction if you read the Bible from an educated prism, not from a medievel framework, as what i have said

It seems your argument is flawed in that you keep referring to religoius groups, denominations, and the actions of people -- but the debate is not about that, it is the conception of God which is a completely different debate

if some people choose to take things literally, that is their option, not mine, and if you read any history of the church, you will see that that is not the general line of educated, thinking, Christians -- but for the majority, i cannot speak for them, and i am not to speak for them

i have read all but 3 of Dawkin's books, I have read Harris, Hitchens, and all the New Atheists, I am a graduate student at an urban university studying comparative religion, i have attended the debates of Hitchens and Dawkins, and I am very familiar with this whole brand of argument, it rests on weak foundations, and appeals to newly awakened anti-theists, that is all

if we are to have a serious conversation about the conception of God, then we cannot start it off by listing all the faults of religion, or what is done in the name of God, or by having preconceived notions of why God doesn't intervene, or why God causes disasters (i.e. allowing the Holocaust to occur), because that is just ridiculous.

 

[waitasec]

i understand perfectly what you're saying, but you have it wrong i believe,

yes it is wrong that a small fanatical religious group sets the course in this country - i agree

religion is a simple way of leading many people who are not very well educated

:yes:

nevertheless, the issue is not a social one that we are debating, it is a philosophical one, about the Christian concept of God and not about people's interpretation of the Bible

-abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage etc. . . . . these are PEOPLE's interpretation of the BIBLE, not of God.

and how do you know you have the right interpretation?

if we are to have a serious conversation about the conception of God, then we cannot start it off by listing all the faults of religion, or what is done in the name of God, or by having preconceived notions of why God doesn't intervene, or why God causes disasters (i.e. allowing the Holocaust to occur), because that is just ridiculous.

yes it is ridiculous...because there is no god who is loving and kind and who is concerned with the daily activities of humans...so why even try to have a serious conversation about a ridiculous concept as that?

 

[Danmac]

yes it is wrong that a small fanatical religious group sets the course in this country - i agree

It was one woman that was instrumental in having prayer removed from the classroom. It was one court case that legalized abortion. It is the work of one lawsuit that removes commandments from courthouses.

religion is a simple way of leading many people who are not very well educated

That is probably true of the majority of religious people, but there are many very well educated religious folk as well.

i have read all but 3 of Dawkin's books, I have read Harris, Hitchens, and all the New Atheists, I am a graduate student at an urban university studying comparative religion, i have attended the debates of Hitchens and Dawkins, and I am very familiar with this whole brand of argument, it rests on weak foundations, and appeals to newly awakened anti-theists, that is all

So atheists are also guilty of adopting the views of atheists leaders without doing their own research. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Tathagata]

P.S. Dawkins thesis of arguing against "God" is rather incorrect, in that he is arguing against organized religion - hence the list of offenses done in the name of religion.

Completely FALSE. Dawkins didn't not misattribute organized religions atrocities to God, he attributed GOD's atrocities to God. Did organize religion flood the entire world and destroyed everyone? NO. God did. Who commanded people to be stoned? God did. Who commanded genocide? God did.

See here: Cruelty and Violence

So no, it is you who is mistaken, not Dawkins.

 

[Reverend Rick]

1000 HP Corvette Street Test from Nelson Racing Engines. - sevenload

 

[waitasec]

It was one woman that was instrumental in having prayer removed from the classroom.

everyone can pray to their own god, in jesus name?

It was one court case that legalized abortion.

as much as i disagree with abortion for myself, i cannot tell other people what they should or should not do with their own bodies...

It is the work of one lawsuit that removes commandments from courthouses.

it is unconstitutional...
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

 

[Danmac]

everyone can pray to their own god, in jesus name?



as much as i disagree with abortion for myself, i cannot tell other people what they should or should not do with their own bodies...



it is unconstitutional...
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

My point is, laws are often the result of the wishes of one or two people, and not the will of the people as a whole.

 

[waitasec]

My point is, laws are often the result of the wishes of one or two people, and not the will of the people as a whole.

it took more than 1 or 2 people who contributed for these changes to happen...the will of the people

i would agree that it just takes 1 person to lead the way...
consider this;
is it liberty and justice for all
or liberty and justice for the few
are some to be favored only because they are in the majority?
what about segregation...it was a popular idea...but it was wrong

 

[Blackdog22]

I am curious as to how you interpret the Sabbath being a day of death for anyone who works. Could it actually mean that death = love and God/Jesus meant that we are to share love cakes on Sunday if we work? Oh wait I forgot that God demanded Moses to stone some old guy for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. So either Moses was a fraud or God infact wants people to be brutally murdered on Sundays.


However I am open to the wise ones interpretation.

 

[outhouse]

Most people are in hell, being tormented through unimaginable suffering.

You, however, are among the lucky few. But what is in store for you?

Not being able to trust a being who enjoys mercilessly tormenting others, you would live life in fear. The God of the bible is real. The same God who,

1) Flooded the world
2) Condoned genocide
3) The same God who had a son, only to have him crucified
4) Who tested Abraham's faith by telling him to kill his own son
5) Who allowed demons to prowl the world
6) Who allows natural disasters
7) Terrible health problems, like cancer and heart attacks
8) Condones slavery
9) Death sentences carried out by means of stoning
10) Holocaust
11) Has fits of rage
12) Job's suffering
13) Constantly demands worship and adoration

"Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins

I just don't see how anyone would want to live under such a God. You would be afraid that at any time he might snap, and start tossing more people into hell. Its a terrible prospect.

Why would any reasonable person want to be in an afterlife with the God of the bible? Shouldn't believers be worried about this? I mean, just read the book. That gives you a good idea of what God is like. No reasonable person would want to live under such a God. To hope for a life in heaven would be to hope for a life of fear and forced worship, and probably future punishment - or worse, eternal torment.

LOL so true

and yet there are billions who would kiss his feet

 

[Danmac]

Most people are in hell, being tormented through unimaginable suffering.

You, however, are among the lucky few. But what is in store for you?

Not being able to trust a being who enjoys mercilessly tormenting others, you would live life in fear. The God of the bible is real. The same God who,

1) Flooded the world- judgment due to mans rebellion.
2) Condoned genocide- He judged genocide with genocide
3) The same God who had a son, only to have him crucified- so you could be spared
4) Who tested Abraham's faith by telling him to kill his own son- His son wasn't killed
5) Who allowed demons to prowl the world- Longsuffering
6) Who allows natural disasters- global warming is mans fault. So are the natural disasters that result due to global warming
7) Terrible health problems, like cancer and heart attacks- Consequences of sin
8) Condones slavery- condones free moral agency. Hates slavery
9) Death sentences carried out by means of stoning- Deterrent for sin. A smack on the hand doesn't seem to work in most cases.
10) Holocaust- the work of warped men, not God.
11) Has fits of rage. Yes, he hates the way we treat each other
12) Job's suffering- Job ended up with twice as much as he started with
13) Constantly demands worship and adoration. For Jesus, not for himself.

"Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins

I believe Dawkins could use a good dose of anger management himself. He is a warped, frustrated young man.

I just don't see how anyone would want to live under such a God. You would be afraid that at any time he might snap, and start tossing more people into hell. Its a terrible prospect.

Then don't get on his bad side. He does have a very generous side. Take advantage of it.

Why would any reasonable person want to be in an afterlife with the God of the bible?

because eternal suffering doesn't appeal much to me.

Shouldn't believers be worried about this?

My sin debt with God has been settled. Me and Him are on good terms now

I mean, just read the book. That gives you a good idea of what God is like. No reasonable person would want to live under such a God. To hope for a life in heaven would be to hope for a life of fear and forced worship, and probably future punishment - or worse, eternal torment.

actually hes been treatin me pretty good for the most part. Oh he doesn't spoil me, but overall he's a pretty good ole boy.

 

[McBell]

I believe Dawkins could use a good dose of anger management himself. He is a warped, frustrated young man.

Why?
Because he does not go to lengths to justify Gods actions?

My sin debt with God has been settled. Me and Him are on good terms now

Good for you!
Hopefully it is the RIGHT god.
Would kinda suck for you to find out all your sucking up was to the wrong deity...

 

[839311]

Then don't get on his bad side. He does have a very generous side. Take advantage of it.

I wouldn't trust a being like that for a second. Fortunately he doesnt exist.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

1) Flooded the world- judgment due to mans rebellion.
2) Condoned genocide- He judged genocide with genocide
3) The same God who had a son, only to have him crucified- so you could be spared
4) Who tested Abraham's faith by telling him to kill his own son- His son wasn't killed
5) Who allowed demons to prowl the world- Longsuffering
6) Who allows natural disasters- global warming is mans fault. So are the natural disasters that result due to global warming
7) Terrible health problems, like cancer and heart attacks- Consequences of sin
8) Condones slavery- condones free moral agency. Hates slavery
9) Death sentences carried out by means of stoning- Deterrent for sin. A smack on the hand doesn't seem to work in most cases.
10) Holocaust- the work of warped men, not God.
11) Has fits of rage. Yes, he hates the way we treat each other
12) Job's suffering- Job ended up with twice as much as he started with
13) Constantly demands worship and adoration. For Jesus, not for himself.

I can't believe you fell for that.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Another one of these threads...

I don't know if I should attempt to explain this. I feel like I'd be beating my head against a wall. Gives me headaches...

 

[Danmac]

Why?
Because he does not go to lengths to justify Gods actions?

Because he is a venum spewing hate monger. That;s pretty much it.

Good for you!
Hopefully it is the RIGHT god.
Would kinda suck for you to find out all your sucking up was to the wrong deity...

Thank God I got the right one huh?

 

[dust1n]

Firstly, it is a medieval interpretation because it takes the Old Testament literally. Obviously the world was not created in a several days, you have to understand the context and the time period that the scriptures were written by the patriarchs.

Why does taking the OT literally constitute medieval? What about the NT, is it literal or not? If the NT is literal, why is it literal and why is the OT not? Why should I not think these patriarchs really did believe the world took seven days to create... they wrote it pretty plainly.

An educated, well-learned Christian, who does not just reference the Bible but who also reads about the history of the time and the philosophies of the time, can understand that the Bible - though the inspiration of God - is not the word of God - God did not dictate the bible, as for example to Muhammad in the Qoran - but the people who wrote scripture were inspired by the divine to write it, therefore they wrote it in the contexts, concepts, and anecdotes familiar and completely in sync with the framework of spirituality at the that time.

If it was divinely inspired, why was it so poorly written? Why were literary devices such as ancedotes the result of God's divine inspiration, opposed to correct and hard information? Why am I to think that any of those writings were actually 'divinely inspired,' instead of just examining them as being claimed to be 'divinely inspired?'

Of course our concepts of scripture and the supernatural have roots in ancient times, but scripture, and the construct and concept of religion evolves, changes to the times. The concept of God is interpretative, depending on the denomination, and interpretation.

Seems like a rather useless thing to have then... I could make anything up to interpret the way I view reality to be. I don't need a Bronze Aged textbook to steer me to what I've acquired mostly through careful observation.

Without a thorough knowledge of the Bible, and if one takes a juvenile literalist approach, then we are left with someone who has a lack not only of the compassionate, transcendent, and beautiful concept of man and the supernatural, but someone who is ignorant of an ancient literary style.

What compassionate, transcendent and beautiful concept of man are you referring to?

And I suppose, back to my original question, which of these are literal events and which are just parables that mean something a lot less cruel than read at first glance?

1) Flooded the world
2) Condoned genocide
3) The same God who had a son, only to have him crucified
4) Who tested Abraham's faith by telling him to kill his own son
5) Who allowed demons to prowl the world
6) Who allows natural disasters
7) Terrible health problems, like cancer and heart attacks
8) Condones slavery
9) Death sentences carried out by means of stoning
10) Holocaust
11) Has fits of rage
12) Job's suffering
13) Constantly demands worship and adoration

 

[dust1n]

I'm fairly certain that you want to glorify yourself It's our sinful human nature to do that.

I see no glory in myself, let alone anything else. Perhaps you should reassess what you are fairly certain about.

 

[dust1n]

All Dawkins is saying, is making a very simple-minded 4th grade Sunday school question -- "if God is good, then why do bad things happen, that means God makes bad things happen, why did he let the Holocaust happen?" etc., etc., etc.

These statements are devoid of serious theological, philosophical, and historical frameworks, and is rather more designed to flare the anti-theist mind, then to delve into and address the mysteries, contradictions, and the supposed cruelty of the Judeo-Christian faith and God.

How is the questions of an apparent contradiction of a heavily supported and followed idea devoid of serious theological, philosphical and historical frameworks?

 

[dust1n]

My point is, laws are often the result of the wishes of one or two people, and not the will of the people as a whole.

That's dumb. Even for a case, you aren't taking into account the legal team, which usually compromises 1-5 lawyers, the judges who vote in the approval of such changes (at least 5)... I'm not even going to go on counting how many people are involved. I am suspicious that it might be a waste of my time.