otokage007
Well-Known Member
Life in Heaven can be very boring. Throwing some sinners to hell is a lot of fun.
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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?
- Thread starter Lord_Dweedle
- Start date
DandyAndy
Active Member
Mercy and love don't make a lot of sense...
DandyAndy
Active Member
The sacrifice of Christ 'covers' the sin. Think of it in a judicial court system - that is a constant metaphor and helps me understand the whole thing plainly.
We sin = we commit a crime.
All crimes are defined by the law.
All crimes are punishable by the pre-determined punishment set forth by the one that made the law.
All humans are guilty of committing crime.
All humans deserve punishment.
Jesus took on this punishment himself and God, through Christ, offers EVERYONE a pardon.
Accept the pardon (Christ) and trust and live your life as if you mean it, you are declared innocent and thus are not punished.
Deny the pardon (Christ) and you are found guilty and punished.
God is the judge.
ONLY those that accept the pardon receive the pardon, though the pardon is made available FREELY for ALL.
So not accepting Christ is not a sin per se (that I know of - double check the NT) but as an unbeliever you are left with no pardon, you are guilty just like everyone else, so you must answer for your crimes and accept the punishment = eternal separation from God in Hell/Hades/Sheol/Lake of Fire whatever you want to call it - whatever it is called, it will be separation from all that is good and it will suck.
kepha31
Active Member
That is not Christian teaching. God did not just create people to throw them in hell. That is John Calvin's idea and he was wrong.
The Christian God does not send anyone to hell. People send themselves.
More Calvinism
We are all REDEEMED but we are not all SAVED.
Basically, redemption is collective, while salvation is individual. Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment that mankind, as a whole, owed due to sin. Every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race. Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. A person can choose to reject the graces won for him by Christ even though he has been redeemed.
Jesus died for the redemption of all mankind. (not just Christians) The apostle Paul says, "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). God desires the salvation of all men (cf. 1 Tim. 2:34), thus he died to redeem mankind and offer salvation to all. His death redeemed mankind collectively, so we can say that even non-Christians are redeemed. Because each person has free will, he can choose to reject the salvation offered him as a gift. So, while all are redeemed, it is possible that not all will be saved. Christs death is sufficient for the salvation of all, but it is efficient for the salvation of those who choose to accept that gift.
Remember that Jesus said from the cross, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Lk 23:34). What did his sacrifice on the cross have to do with those who mocked him, spit at him, and crucified him? In other words, what did it have to do with those for whom he was asking forgiveness from God the Father? The answer is: everything. For some, it was through ignorance that they crucified him, and invincible ignorance can diminish ones culpability for evil doneeven the crucifixion of our Savior. They still could be saved, or Jesus plea for their forgiveness to the Father would make no sense. Whoever enters heaven will do so only because of Christ and his sacrificial work on the cross. Some people may enter heaven having never heard of Christ, but it will be because of him that they enter. (not by opinions of a few Bible verses)
waitasec
Veteran Member
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.
I love the words of the Savior "If ye love me keep my commandments."
waitasec
Veteran Member
mercy and love makes sense, giving away your culpability doesn't
Not really. By stating that, you have immediately assumed that everyone who is not a christian knows they are going to hell and knows God is the only one who can save them. Massive assumption and I look forward to how you are going to prove it
jtartar
Well-Known Member
Lord_Dweedle,
What you have stated is the belief of many religious teachers, but is what they teach truth???
One of the very first thing everyone must learn, is: What is death??? Consider what the Bible says about death, Ecc 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10. Death is the opposite of life, there is NO knowledge, so, no feeling. At death a person is out of existence, Job 14:2, 21. You see, the reason for the promise of the resurrection is to bring people back to life again, both the righteous and the unrighteous, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, and then the ones who never had the chance to learn of God's purpose will have a chance to life in a paradise earth.
Please contemplate what is said at Rom 6:7. All who have died have been freed from their sins. Remember the wages that sin pays is death, Rom 6:23. So when a person dies he has paid the ultimate price for his sins. There can be no punishment, as many people think HELL is, Death frees a person from all his sins. This is because Jesus came to earth to become the Ransom Sacrifice to free men of their sins, John 1:29, Heb 9:24-28, 10:14.
To clear up one other thing. The word HELL, Is a corruption of the Greek word Hades. The Greek word Hades has the same meaning as the Hebrew word Sheol. Both these words mean the common grave of mankind, wherever that might be, Rev 20:13,14.
The important thing to remember is; Jesus was in HELL, Hades, for parts of three days, Ps 19:10, Acts 2:27,31. Since Jesus was God's onlybegotten son, and never committed a sin, Jesus would NEVER go to a place of torture or punishment, for even an instant, God would never allow that!!! Death and the grave was only for sinners. Jesus took on our sins and went to the grave to save us, Matt 20:28, Acts 13:38,39. Even people who hate God will only be thrown into the second DEATH, Rev 20:14,15. THINK!! To torture or punish a person for eternity for things they did in this short life would be extremely cruel. There is NO cruelity in the Almighty God. For people who just will not learn righteousness, their punishment will be everlasting DEATH, Locked away from the blessings of God, 2Thes 1:6-9. Deut 32:4, Ps 86:5,15, Job 34:10-12.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Is God just or loving? Because what you've just said doesn't match him being either.
waitasec
Veteran Member
common grave for mankind...while there is a second death
god would "never" go to a place of torture and punishment while
death and the grave is "ONLY" for sinners so jesus went there as sin but not to a place of torture and punishment...what was the purpose then?
i especially think this is confusing
so what is locking someone away from the blessings of god for an eternity mean?
if someone is locked, it's meant for no one to escape and why would they want to do that? why in an eternally locked away state?
all i see are disclaimers, which tells me you are reaching for straws.
besides taking on my culpability and responsibility is morally irresponsible.
because those belong to me and only me. giving these away gives me the justification that everything is permissible. so, morally speaking, is everything permissible?
pwfaith
Active Member
Not really. By stating that, you have immediately assumed that everyone who is not a christian knows they are going to hell and knows God is the only one who can save them. Massive assumption and I look forward to how you are going to prove it
Hell is a consequence. Consequence " A result or effect of an action or condition". Hell is what will result from our sinning, and having a sinful nature, if we do not accept God's offer of redemption to be covered by Jesus death on the cross.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i have a problem with that word. more like, "if we do not accept the condition of his ultimatum..."
pwfaith
Active Member
I thought of something else while rereading the OP - what about the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican? THE PHARISEE AND THE PUBLICAN!
waitasec
Veteran Member
the "morally superior" seem to want to control everyones business.
lk 18:9'
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else
seems very apropos.
pwfaith
Active Member
More accurately, "if we don't receive his gift". I used an example in another thread with my children. If I tell my children, the consequence for going out into the street and not looking both ways, it being hit by the car. I suppose the ultimatum could be "look both ways or get hit by a car" but do I really mean it the way it sounds, so harsh and cold or am I telling them this to protect them and keep them from a harm that will naturally result from them not obeying my words?
waitasec
Veteran Member
i wouldn't put my child in harms way in the 1st place knowing the limitations of their understanding of what being hit by a car means...
pwfaith
Active Member
Of course it depends on the age of the child and their understanding. I was under the impression we were talking about a child that is old enough to understand how to look both ways when crossing the street and can understand what a consequence is. At least in my analogy I was
waitasec
Veteran Member
Of course it depends on the age of the child and their understanding. I was under the impression we were talking about a child that is old enough to understand how to look both ways when crossing the street and can understand what a consequence is. At least in my analogy I was
alright then why would god set up a situation where he knew adam and eve were not privy to the fact that disobedience was a wrong?
they hadn't tasted the fruit yet.
if they knew it was wrong to disobey then they would have obeyed because they would understand what the consequences of their actions were. it's just like you telling your child who isn't fully capable of understanding the consequences of getting hit by a car and yet you to expect them to understand...
but see even the entire concept of obedience doesn't make sense if adam and eve were innocent. as a mother you should know that innocence means yes to everything boundless and free of any knowledge of any consequence.