Bradpaisley94
New Member
I have understood that the United Methodist Church is split over gay issues with both liberal and conservative fractions. What will happen and how will it end?
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Will the UMC split over gay issues?
- Thread starter Bradpaisley94
- Start date
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks...
I never understand this issue or the confusion it brings.. I mean - clearly - the god of the bible itself - the "head honcho" they all suppose to follow and worship - IS AGAINST GAYS - end of discussion as far as THAT "od" goes...It HAS given MANDATES that forbid such sexual activity - and it HAS ALREADY destroyed whole cities FOR that activity specifically...So they say and firmly believe IN THE BIBLE ITSELF...
So the confusion comes then from MAN once again it seems - for the god itself condemns the activity openly and forcefully - and yet its so called followers now question their own gods judgements and decrees... Being gay and being a bible following christian are clearly INCOMAPATABLE - the god OF the bible obviously despises the activity and lifestyle and condemns all who embrace it, as said even to the point it murders them for that lifestyle (in the bible itself).....
Whats the issue then..??...If these church goers REALLY believe and follow their god then THEIR choice is clear - they MUST reject gays outright as their god does..
or - if they find their own personal experience does NOT follow the religious gods dictates - then just as obvious really - they SHOULD leave the "church" altogether
I never understand this issue or the confusion it brings.. I mean - clearly - the god of the bible itself - the "head honcho" they all suppose to follow and worship - IS AGAINST GAYS - end of discussion as far as THAT "od" goes...It HAS given MANDATES that forbid such sexual activity - and it HAS ALREADY destroyed whole cities FOR that activity specifically...So they say and firmly believe IN THE BIBLE ITSELF...
So the confusion comes then from MAN once again it seems - for the god itself condemns the activity openly and forcefully - and yet its so called followers now question their own gods judgements and decrees... Being gay and being a bible following christian are clearly INCOMAPATABLE - the god OF the bible obviously despises the activity and lifestyle and condemns all who embrace it, as said even to the point it murders them for that lifestyle (in the bible itself).....
Whats the issue then..??...If these church goers REALLY believe and follow their god then THEIR choice is clear - they MUST reject gays outright as their god does..
or - if they find their own personal experience does NOT follow the religious gods dictates - then just as obvious really - they SHOULD leave the "church" altogether
Bradpaisley94
New Member
Hi Folks...
I never understand this issue or the confusion it brings.. I mean - clearly - the god of the bible itself - the "head honcho" they all suppose to follow and worship - IS AGAINST GAYS - end of discussion as far as THAT "od" goes...It HAS given MANDATES that forbid such sexual activity - and it HAS ALREADY destroyed whole cities FOR that activity specifically...So they say and firmly believe IN THE BIBLE ITSELF...
So the confusion comes then from MAN once again it seems - for the god itself condemns the activity openly and forcefully - and yet its so called followers now question their own gods judgements and decrees... Being gay and being a bible following christian are clearly INCOMAPATABLE - the god OF the bible obviously despises the activity and lifestyle and condemns all who embrace it, as said even to the point it murders them for that lifestyle (in the bible itself).....
Whats the issue then..??...If these church goers REALLY believe and follow their god then THEIR choice is clear - they MUST reject gays outright as their god does..
or - if they find their own personal experience does NOT follow the religious gods dictates - then just as obvious really - they SHOULD leave the "church" altogether
Well, I did not say I was for or against homosexuality, I asked what is going on within THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH and THEIR position on the issue. Bcs it's clearly an issue within ALL churches.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Brad; Yer Im with you mate - it IS an issue within all the so called "christian churchs" - and that is because as said the god they ALL worship and follow is as said totally against gays and homosexual relations....
The so called GODS view is clearly stated...It took direct action against homosexuals FOR their specific lifestyle and basically anhialated the whole city..So we see clearly how the "god" feels.....But - the clergy..?..Not so clear.. They are SUPPOSED to follow the god - so clearly they are SUPPOSED to be anti gay - it IS their religious mandate as decreed BY that "god" directly in the seventh commandment ..
Thou shalt not commit adultery....Hmm - adultery is extra marital sex - and at THAT time and culture - and according to THAT god directly - marriage itself was a sacred thing between man and WOMAN - and ONLY a man and a woman...Therefore homosexual relations are a complete no no the god says - breaks the gods directly given commandment - obviously....Now the church HAS to follow THAT decree - surely..?...It cannot pick and choose which of these commandments to follow as it sees fit - can it..?...
And so the churches position is already allocated for it BY THEIR GOD and in truth the church MUST be anti gay in all its public faces...MUST be so or else it will publicly deny its "god" and will publicly be seen to be hypocritical OF that gods decrees.. The churchs position is really UNALTERABLE - unless of course the "god" changes its mind - but of course it wont - as that god is actually SILENT now and has been for a VERY long time already...The church OF that god then is stuck with its decrees for ever more and can NOT now pick and choose - swap or change as it sees fit...To do so WOULD be blatant hypocrasy - and to go against their gods decrees so openly is surely blasphemy itself...
So - the INSTITUTION - the religion itself - should be - IS - and always WILL BE - anti gay - for that is precisely what the "god" DEMANDS of them...Therefore as said - any clergy - or church going lay person - who accepts homosexuality, has then immediately become INCOMPATABLE with that religion and its god - by embracing and accepting the homosexual the person turns their back ON their gods mandates and so they really should then leave the church and religion altogether if they find it does not fit their truth of experience..
You simply can NOT be a bible adherant, church going Yahweh worshipper and be gay at the same time...The two lifestyles ARE wholly incompatable as decreed BY the god itself mandated as a sacred commandment to all its worshippers...NO ADULTERY - no extra marrital sex - and marriage is ALWAYS and ONLY a MAN and a WOMAN it says - so obviously any sexual activity other than this sanctioned here by them is a blasphemy against their gods decrees... The church CAN NOT ALTER that position as it was dictated for them and man, priest and clergy has no AUTHORUTY to alter that gods demands - do they..?...
Even the act of arguing against the position is an act of blasphemy here for the god itself is very clear isnt it..??.. And so all these churchs that swap and change now as they see fit are not ACTUALLY following that god or itds decrees any more, but are now following MAN and mans decrees - obviously so......All ways around - the church is a blatant hypocrasy - they cannot pick and choose their gods mandates as THEY see fit - and should now either embrace the god and religion fully or leave it altogether if their conscience does not agree
Brad; Yer Im with you mate - it IS an issue within all the so called "christian churchs" - and that is because as said the god they ALL worship and follow is as said totally against gays and homosexual relations....
The so called GODS view is clearly stated...It took direct action against homosexuals FOR their specific lifestyle and basically anhialated the whole city..So we see clearly how the "god" feels.....But - the clergy..?..Not so clear.. They are SUPPOSED to follow the god - so clearly they are SUPPOSED to be anti gay - it IS their religious mandate as decreed BY that "god" directly in the seventh commandment ..
Thou shalt not commit adultery....Hmm - adultery is extra marital sex - and at THAT time and culture - and according to THAT god directly - marriage itself was a sacred thing between man and WOMAN - and ONLY a man and a woman...Therefore homosexual relations are a complete no no the god says - breaks the gods directly given commandment - obviously....Now the church HAS to follow THAT decree - surely..?...It cannot pick and choose which of these commandments to follow as it sees fit - can it..?...
And so the churches position is already allocated for it BY THEIR GOD and in truth the church MUST be anti gay in all its public faces...MUST be so or else it will publicly deny its "god" and will publicly be seen to be hypocritical OF that gods decrees.. The churchs position is really UNALTERABLE - unless of course the "god" changes its mind - but of course it wont - as that god is actually SILENT now and has been for a VERY long time already...The church OF that god then is stuck with its decrees for ever more and can NOT now pick and choose - swap or change as it sees fit...To do so WOULD be blatant hypocrasy - and to go against their gods decrees so openly is surely blasphemy itself...
So - the INSTITUTION - the religion itself - should be - IS - and always WILL BE - anti gay - for that is precisely what the "god" DEMANDS of them...Therefore as said - any clergy - or church going lay person - who accepts homosexuality, has then immediately become INCOMPATABLE with that religion and its god - by embracing and accepting the homosexual the person turns their back ON their gods mandates and so they really should then leave the church and religion altogether if they find it does not fit their truth of experience..
You simply can NOT be a bible adherant, church going Yahweh worshipper and be gay at the same time...The two lifestyles ARE wholly incompatable as decreed BY the god itself mandated as a sacred commandment to all its worshippers...NO ADULTERY - no extra marrital sex - and marriage is ALWAYS and ONLY a MAN and a WOMAN it says - so obviously any sexual activity other than this sanctioned here by them is a blasphemy against their gods decrees... The church CAN NOT ALTER that position as it was dictated for them and man, priest and clergy has no AUTHORUTY to alter that gods demands - do they..?...
Even the act of arguing against the position is an act of blasphemy here for the god itself is very clear isnt it..??.. And so all these churchs that swap and change now as they see fit are not ACTUALLY following that god or itds decrees any more, but are now following MAN and mans decrees - obviously so......All ways around - the church is a blatant hypocrasy - they cannot pick and choose their gods mandates as THEY see fit - and should now either embrace the god and religion fully or leave it altogether if their conscience does not agree
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
That is a very reactionary view and fortunately rather rare in Europe and the UK.
Like every one else Gays were created by God, as to was their nature.
I do no believe for one minute that God hates anything he has created.
Homosexuality is as natural as any other sexuality and is God given.
Most Christian churches now recognise this fact. though some are still in transition.
However many churches are having problems over the meaning of Marriage, which was defined at a time when homosexuality was not recognised as a natural sexual state.
There are likely to be reactionary, bigoted and hateful church members around in the world for a while yet, following their narrow minded agenda. But it will never stop the good works done in their churches, in the name of God, by people they hate. the UMC no doubt has their fair share of them.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Terry;
Yes it IS a very reactionary view - and yet it IS the view held BY THAT GOD DIRECTLY STATED !! It does NOT MATTER what PEOPLE think - Europe Uk or ANYWHERE - totally irrelevant - but what the GOD says is all that is important here TO those of THAT religion..Again, to pick and choose what syuits MAN is to make a hypocrasy of their religion and is to directly blaspheme and go against their gods DECREES !!
Hmm - have you actually read their bible ..???....The god there is most obviously hateful toward homosexuals...It destroyed the city of SODOM - for its sexual perversions - namely and specifically for SODOMY - anal intercourse Folks - this is indeed WHERE the term originates...The god here despised it so much he literally wiped out an entire city for that specific sexual act !!
Now some bible adherants I have no doubt , will try to say the god destroyed the city for other reasons - inhospitality is often cited as an alternative, as in , god didnt like the way they treated their guests...lol...so he destroys them all completely....lol...........Ah - the religious types really should get a grip on themselves here..lol...read it PROPERLY - genesis 19 if memory serves - read how two Angels come to Sodom with a warning - and read how a gang of gay men accost them, and demand to be allowed to RAPE them to satisfy their out of control lusts....Even when the man Lot offers his own virgin daughters in their place, still the gays insist on anally raping the Angels - for THIS REASON -that sexual act itself (hence the term sodomy) the city is destroyed !!
When the god speaks OF the male homosexual act itself it uses terms such as "morally detestable" - or says openly it is an "abomination" to him (Leviticus and Jude for clear examples, though there are others also)... It is then, entirely naive and a little ridiculous to assume that this god "embraces" the homosexual nature in any way shape or form - it openly detests and despises them, rejects them and destroys them without any compassion at all.. Doesnt even bother to explain or even to pronounce a judgement - just tells the "good guys" get out of town quick then utterly devastates the entire place, eradicates the problem at the source destroys the land completely, the city people livestock - EVERYTHING wiped out - even the vegetation, so that nothing can even live in the region for years to come, and so this god leaves a clear example of its view and intent toward homosexuals for all to see.....he UTTERLY destroyed them !! And you still think it has no "hatred"..?...Think again....
Hmm - debatable at best - but - entirely irrelevant - for as said - your view, or mine or any other mortal mans - is IRRELEVANT - as it is the GOD who is supposed to have the authority and not the man - and the god HAS made its own posision very clear indeed...
Consider - you speak of that which is NATURAL - but fail to understand completley that ACTUALLY - the male homosexual act itself is most UNNATURAL in every sense of the word...The anus is not designed for sexual intercourse and if it is used for that sexual purpose this can only EVER be an UNNATURAL action.. Indeed this seems to be the very crux of the matter for the gods views here - the homosexual is clearly seen by this god as defiling the "sacred creation" of the body as defined BY that god and it is VERY pissed at them indeed for doing so..
Remember always here to THESE people sex and marriage are SACRED things given to them DIRECTLY BY THEIR GOD - ORDAINED by their god !! It is then a case where the homosexuals are directly insulting and literally mocking that god and its decrees and literally defiling their body by performing unnatural acts with it.. Hence the god utterly destroys them in VENGANCE for their blatant disrespect... As said it doesnt even do them the courtesy of a heads up warning - no chance to "repent their evil ways" either - just an utter destruction without mercy.. Tells us clearly this god must indeed be very VERY angry at them - must indeed hate and despise them just as it openyl declares - doesnt even WANT to bring them back to him - just wants to destroy them for their transgressions...Every other "sin" gets a chance for forgiveness and repentance - except here this homosexual act gets them all obliterated without any second thoughts - MUST be a severe trangression indeed them...
Ah but thats the whole point - its not only THEIR agenda primarily - but their GODS AGENDA clearly stated
And thats the other point here - its NOT done in the name of their god - if it WERE done in that gods name then the church too would have to despise and hate the gays just as the GOD DOES
There is a lot of blatant hypocrasy with the church religion - but the essential truth is, that to be faithful TO the god and its stated decrees then the church will have to reject homosexuals completely just as the god does..
Terry;
Yes it IS a very reactionary view - and yet it IS the view held BY THAT GOD DIRECTLY STATED !! It does NOT MATTER what PEOPLE think - Europe Uk or ANYWHERE - totally irrelevant - but what the GOD says is all that is important here TO those of THAT religion..Again, to pick and choose what syuits MAN is to make a hypocrasy of their religion and is to directly blaspheme and go against their gods DECREES !!
Hmm - have you actually read their bible ..???....The god there is most obviously hateful toward homosexuals...It destroyed the city of SODOM - for its sexual perversions - namely and specifically for SODOMY - anal intercourse Folks - this is indeed WHERE the term originates...The god here despised it so much he literally wiped out an entire city for that specific sexual act !!
Now some bible adherants I have no doubt , will try to say the god destroyed the city for other reasons - inhospitality is often cited as an alternative, as in , god didnt like the way they treated their guests...lol...so he destroys them all completely....lol...........Ah - the religious types really should get a grip on themselves here..lol...read it PROPERLY - genesis 19 if memory serves - read how two Angels come to Sodom with a warning - and read how a gang of gay men accost them, and demand to be allowed to RAPE them to satisfy their out of control lusts....Even when the man Lot offers his own virgin daughters in their place, still the gays insist on anally raping the Angels - for THIS REASON -that sexual act itself (hence the term sodomy) the city is destroyed !!
When the god speaks OF the male homosexual act itself it uses terms such as "morally detestable" - or says openly it is an "abomination" to him (Leviticus and Jude for clear examples, though there are others also)... It is then, entirely naive and a little ridiculous to assume that this god "embraces" the homosexual nature in any way shape or form - it openly detests and despises them, rejects them and destroys them without any compassion at all.. Doesnt even bother to explain or even to pronounce a judgement - just tells the "good guys" get out of town quick then utterly devastates the entire place, eradicates the problem at the source destroys the land completely, the city people livestock - EVERYTHING wiped out - even the vegetation, so that nothing can even live in the region for years to come, and so this god leaves a clear example of its view and intent toward homosexuals for all to see.....he UTTERLY destroyed them !! And you still think it has no "hatred"..?...Think again....
Hmm - debatable at best - but - entirely irrelevant - for as said - your view, or mine or any other mortal mans - is IRRELEVANT - as it is the GOD who is supposed to have the authority and not the man - and the god HAS made its own posision very clear indeed...
Consider - you speak of that which is NATURAL - but fail to understand completley that ACTUALLY - the male homosexual act itself is most UNNATURAL in every sense of the word...The anus is not designed for sexual intercourse and if it is used for that sexual purpose this can only EVER be an UNNATURAL action.. Indeed this seems to be the very crux of the matter for the gods views here - the homosexual is clearly seen by this god as defiling the "sacred creation" of the body as defined BY that god and it is VERY pissed at them indeed for doing so..
Remember always here to THESE people sex and marriage are SACRED things given to them DIRECTLY BY THEIR GOD - ORDAINED by their god !! It is then a case where the homosexuals are directly insulting and literally mocking that god and its decrees and literally defiling their body by performing unnatural acts with it.. Hence the god utterly destroys them in VENGANCE for their blatant disrespect... As said it doesnt even do them the courtesy of a heads up warning - no chance to "repent their evil ways" either - just an utter destruction without mercy.. Tells us clearly this god must indeed be very VERY angry at them - must indeed hate and despise them just as it openyl declares - doesnt even WANT to bring them back to him - just wants to destroy them for their transgressions...Every other "sin" gets a chance for forgiveness and repentance - except here this homosexual act gets them all obliterated without any second thoughts - MUST be a severe trangression indeed them...
Ah but thats the whole point - its not only THEIR agenda primarily - but their GODS AGENDA clearly stated
And thats the other point here - its NOT done in the name of their god - if it WERE done in that gods name then the church too would have to despise and hate the gays just as the GOD DOES
There is a lot of blatant hypocrasy with the church religion - but the essential truth is, that to be faithful TO the god and its stated decrees then the church will have to reject homosexuals completely just as the god does..
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Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
From the Bible we learn a lot about what the men of prebiblical and Biblical time thought about God. And they wrote much of it, as if it was something God said or had done.
However only the error of being a Bible literalist, would lead any one to believe it was all the true word of God.
People of all times have deposited their prejudiced ideas into the word of God. With out any knowledge of their truth.
However only the error of being a Bible literalist, would lead any one to believe it was all the true word of God.
People of all times have deposited their prejudiced ideas into the word of God. With out any knowledge of their truth.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Terry; Yes I could agree with that in general - but here this specific religion - is indeed VERY specific...
The GOD itself - literally DICTATED these commandments in what is presented as a personal "face to face" encounter with that god directly.. Their man Moses supposedly met the god directly, the god then directly gave commandments - WROTE IN ITS OWN HAND and gave the tablets to Moses to pass to the people. - yes..??.....Ergo - these commandments are literally "written in stone" as they say DIRECTLY by their god and are UNALTERABLE !!
So "people" - mankind - did NOT "deposit their prejudiced ideas into the word of god" - not that at all - complete opposite..The god LITERALLY DICTATED that which the people are ALLOWED to think - literally DICTATED how they are ALLOWED to behave - literally gave them hard and fast rules that MUST be obeyed...As said this homosexual issue is covered by those rules commandment 7 no extra marital sex AT ALL, and marriage itself ONLY man and a woman as decreed DIRECTLY by that god !!
Its pointless going round in circles or bringing mans opinions into any of this - as said it is the GOD that is SUPPOSED to be the authority - any and all who profess to follow that god must obviously fully embrace its mandates and those mandates absolutely reject the homosexual lifestyle completely - dont they..??..RIGHT AT THE HEART AND CORE of the religion, the very foundational ten commandments themselves fully REJECT the homosexual lifestyle - and this "gods" later punishment and treatment OF homosexuals blatantly tells us ITS agenda and intent toward them....Totally rejected them and then destroyed them utterly without any compassion at all...NONE of that is mans doing - it ALL came directly from the GOD itself according to that religion...
Terry; Yes I could agree with that in general - but here this specific religion - is indeed VERY specific...
The GOD itself - literally DICTATED these commandments in what is presented as a personal "face to face" encounter with that god directly.. Their man Moses supposedly met the god directly, the god then directly gave commandments - WROTE IN ITS OWN HAND and gave the tablets to Moses to pass to the people. - yes..??.....Ergo - these commandments are literally "written in stone" as they say DIRECTLY by their god and are UNALTERABLE !!
So "people" - mankind - did NOT "deposit their prejudiced ideas into the word of god" - not that at all - complete opposite..The god LITERALLY DICTATED that which the people are ALLOWED to think - literally DICTATED how they are ALLOWED to behave - literally gave them hard and fast rules that MUST be obeyed...As said this homosexual issue is covered by those rules commandment 7 no extra marital sex AT ALL, and marriage itself ONLY man and a woman as decreed DIRECTLY by that god !!
Its pointless going round in circles or bringing mans opinions into any of this - as said it is the GOD that is SUPPOSED to be the authority - any and all who profess to follow that god must obviously fully embrace its mandates and those mandates absolutely reject the homosexual lifestyle completely - dont they..??..RIGHT AT THE HEART AND CORE of the religion, the very foundational ten commandments themselves fully REJECT the homosexual lifestyle - and this "gods" later punishment and treatment OF homosexuals blatantly tells us ITS agenda and intent toward them....Totally rejected them and then destroyed them utterly without any compassion at all...NONE of that is mans doing - it ALL came directly from the GOD itself according to that religion...
Bradpaisley94
New Member
Again, the question is NOT about homosexuality in general but the United Methodist Church and THEIR position in the question
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks....
................and clearly, THEIR position - SHOULD BE - their GODS position - and their god position is indeed, utter contempt for homosexuals...
You cannot be a bible adherant "christian" of ANY denomination that follows the bible as "gods word", and still embrace or condone homosexual behaviour..The two are completely incompatable as that "god" made very clear indeed by wiping them out without mercy compassion or even chance to repent...Just anhialate them was its choice and the religion in all its flavours must now go along WITH that gods decrees...
................and clearly, THEIR position - SHOULD BE - their GODS position - and their god position is indeed, utter contempt for homosexuals...
You cannot be a bible adherant "christian" of ANY denomination that follows the bible as "gods word", and still embrace or condone homosexual behaviour..The two are completely incompatable as that "god" made very clear indeed by wiping them out without mercy compassion or even chance to repent...Just anhialate them was its choice and the religion in all its flavours must now go along WITH that gods decrees...
Bradpaisley94
New Member
Again...not what it should be but what it is...how hard can it be?