Will there be a Rapture of the church(painting)

[Heneni]

Ironically, you say you could care less about a creed, and then say exactly what the creed says! (By the way, the creed and the bible are of the same manufacture, coming out of the same shop.) Specifically, the creed says that Jesus "will judge the living and the dead." So yes, that implies a resurrection of the wicked and the righteous, all of whom will face judgment.

If by "rapture" you mean the whisking away of the church prior to the day of judgment (and after which there is a "tribulation" the church does not have to face), there simply will be no such event (rapture, I mean). Niether scripture nor tradition affirm this. It's an 18th-century invention by some overenthusiastic adventist preachers (who also invented the dispensationalist theology of which the rapture is a small piece).

The problem with people who dont believe in the rapture, in my opinion, is that they believe god fancies hurting his own son in the future. We are IN christ jesus and therefore associate with his body. If god pours his wrath out on his children, its like pouring it out on his own son. That is just...well heresy, creed not creed, tradision or no tradision. Tradisionally god does not plan on hurting his own son in the future, and subsequently nobody that is IN him, because they are indentified with him.

Jesus already took the punishment, does god wanna punish himself again?

Heneni

 

[Muffled]

I did this wrong , was just testing how this site worked....
I painted this after a dream I had , I was left behind.... I woke up crying!!!
My question is... Do you believe in a pre trib ascenscion of the church or a post trib? I have to admit as I read the Bible I'm leaning towards a post trib rapture of the church/
Tom

"Left Behind" is an incomplete concept. In your case it is an irrational fear like thinking that your parents are leaving you at school and will never return for you. Jesus isn't leaving anyone behind who wants to come. That is why His parting statement is an invitation to come instead of a statement not to bother because you aren't good enough.

The reality is that even with Jesus in their faces and the warning of the end of the world many will still refuse to come. It is also true that some will come but then refuse to accept the requirements.

Post trib, pre trib is a tricky business. It doesn't matter that much because the end result is the same. If anyone thinks they escape tribulation in this world they should remember that Jesus said, "In the world you have tribulation." We have the verse that says, He will not put us through more than we can bear.

MO is that it will be last minute because He likes to do last minute rescues.

 

[Wandered Off]

I'm behind the crowd picking up the keys from all those unmanned cars.

 

[Enoch07]

While I can admire the painting for the artwork. I hate to break it to ya, but the rapture is a scam.

 

[Dunemeister]

The problem with people who dont believe in the rapture, in my opinion, is that they believe god fancies hurting his own son in the future. We are IN christ jesus and therefore associate with his body. If god pours his wrath out on his children, its like pouring it out on his own son. That is just...well heresy, creed not creed, tradision or no tradision. Tradisionally god does not plan on hurting his own son in the future, and subsequently nobody that is IN him, because they are indentified with him.

Well, as it happens, before Jesus died on the cross, God had this event in mind. So yes, God planned from all eternity to kill his son, to make him the object of his wrath. It's not heresy, it's the established tradition!

Jesus already took the punishment, does god wanna punish himself again?

Heneni

I didn't say Christians would get punished but that they would face judgment, along with everyone else. The hope of the Christian is that Christ has already borne the punishment due her.

 

[painter49]

"Left Behind" is an incomplete concept. In your case it is an irrational fear like thinking that your parents are leaving you at school and will never return for you. Jesus isn't leaving anyone behind who wants to come. That is why His parting statement is an invitation to come instead of a statement not to bother because you aren't good enough.

The reality is that even with Jesus in their faces and the warning of the end of the world many will still refuse to come. It is also true that some will come but then refuse to accept the requirements.

Post trib, pre trib is a tricky business. It doesn't matter that much because the end result is the same. If anyone thinks they escape tribulation in this world they should remember that Jesus said, "In the world you have tribulation." We have the verse that says, He will not put us through more than we can bear.

MO is that it will be last minute because He likes to do last minute rescues.

I agree that the end result is the same... however if we study the bible with the same scrutiny used to dispell the rapture of the church... it then becomes aparrent that many who think they are saved, won't be reguardless of the timing, pre-trib or post-trib ... Paul himself even hinted at this possibility for himself.
...Tom

 

[Heneni]

Paul himself even hinted at this possibility for himself.
...Tom

Where did paul hint something like that?

 

[Heneni]

Well, as it happens, before Jesus died on the cross, God had this event in mind. So yes, God planned from all eternity to kill his son, to make him the object of his wrath. It's not heresy, it's the established tradition!

I agree. I also said that he wasnt going to do it again. That would be heresy. I mean he isnt going to pour his wrath out on his son again. Agreed?

 

[Dunemeister]

I agree. I also said that he wasnt going to do it again. That would be heresy. I mean he isnt going to pour his wrath out on his son again. Agreed?

Yes. But there's a sense in which we Christians, as Paul said, make up in our own bodies what is lacking in Christ's sacrifice in our sufferings on behalf of the world. And as it happens, we are, in Christ, sons and daughters of God. You can think of it this way: Just as Jesus sacrificed himself on behalf of Israel, so the church sacrifices herself for the world. Yes, Jesus died for the sins of the world, but his suffering is not sufficient for the job. We Christians must suffer, too. That suffering sees its proper place in the overall picture of God's judgement on sin and his offer of grace and freedom. So inasmuch as we are children of God suffering in order to bring life to the world, we are suffering God's wrath. Just as Jesus suffered God's wrath to bring healing to the world, so we Christians suffer wrath in order to facilitate that healing. As for the Master, so for the Student.

Anyway, that might be a bridge too far, but the basic point is that the church suffers the wrath of God (in the form of persecution and other suffering), at least in part for the healing of the nations. In that sense, the church mirrors in her life the dynamic of the cross, a dying that brings life.

 

[Heneni]

Yes. But there's a sense in which we Christians, as Paul said, make up in our own bodies what is lacking in Christ's sacrifice in our sufferings on behalf of the world. And as it happens, we are, in Christ, sons and daughters of God. You can think of it this way: Just as Jesus sacrificed himself on behalf of Israel, so the church sacrifices herself for the world. Yes, Jesus died for the sins of the world, but his suffering is not sufficient for the job. We Christians must suffer, too. That suffering sees its proper place in the overall picture of God's judgement on sin and his offer of grace and freedom. So inasmuch as we are children of God suffering in order to bring life to the world, we are suffering God's wrath. Just as Jesus suffered God's wrath to bring healing to the world, so we Christians suffer wrath in order to facilitate that healing. As for the Master, so for the Student.

Anyway, that might be a bridge too far, but the basic point is that the church suffers the wrath of God (in the form of persecution and other suffering), at least in part for the healing of the nations. In that sense, the church mirrors in her life the dynamic of the cross, a dying that brings life.

I'll start a thread about making up what is lacking in the afflictions of christ, if i havent already. we can discuss that there. Christs afflictions was enough to secure our salvation.

Heneni

 

[Dunemeister]

I'll start a thread about making up what is lacking in the afflictions of christ, if i havent already. we can discuss that there. Christs afflictions was enough to secure our salvation.

Not to pre-empt you, but I fully agree. The afflictions of the church facilitate what Christ accomplished. They don't add to it.