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Wisconsin teachers suspended after asking students how they would punish slaves

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sun Prairie school calls slavery question a “grave error in judgement” (nbc15.com)

These are the kinds of stories which make me shake my head and wonder. How do these things happen? Aren't teachers supposed to have college degrees and some kind of awareness? I'm just curious as to the thought processes which led to them creating this exercise and assigning it to students. That's what always seems to be missing in stories like this, since no journalist ever thinks to ask such questions.
From what I gather, this was a lesson about ancient Mesopotamia, and it was not asking students what you would do to apply the law as a Southern plantation owner in the South with your black slaves as a Southerner. That would border far more on insensitivity, I would think, than trying to role play yourself as someone living in ancient Mesopotamia.

This assignment was given on the first day of Black History Month.
And? From what I read, it has nothing to do with slavery in the Americas, which would be part of Black history. This was about the ancient Near East, where slavery was commonplace with members of all races and ethnicities. The Bible contains references to slavery as well as part of its culture and way of social structures.

From what I gather, the lesson was about understanding another culture from ancient times. It would be like asking how would you as a member of the early Christian church feel about your fellow believers who were slaves. While such concepts jar us today, one cannot wipe out ancient history because its beliefs and values weren't up to today's standards.

Acknowledging it and attempting to understand it, does not, nor should not threaten one's beliefs and values today. "Don't talk about it", is not really learning any lessons from it.

I wish they had said something about the education and background of the teachers who conceived of this assignment. What were they thinking? Were they alt-right with a malignant agenda, or were they just confused, naive liberals who misguidedly thought this would be an important and valuable lesson?
I'm not sure where learning about ancient Mesopotamian culture fits in with the alt-right. Fact is, back in that day, if they had access to the whites in the northern climates, chances are they would have been the ones who were the slaves themselves.

Of course, racial sensitivity is important. I completely acknowledge that. But is this assignment really racially insensitive? If they were role playing what it was like to be an ancient Mesopotamian, should they ignore slavery as part of teaching what it was like? How can you imagine what it was like to be someone living in that day, when you take away its reality?
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
And you think it's appropriate for the students to develop empathy with the person punishing the slave and not, say, the slave being punished? Why?

The exercise can help to develop an understanding of both simultaneously. That you believe that such an exercise would not make them reflect on the status of slaves shows you think very little of children's and teens ability to understand punishment and injustice. Yes, it's also important for them to understand how and why the leaders of such civilisation operates.

It's a bit ignorant to treat slavery as nothing more than an academic concept. This subject matter touches on real trauma for real people.

Hence why it's so important for them to understand it. Note that slavery in Mesopotamia is different than slavery in the 18th and 19th century America so there is some prejudices to correct during that class.

PS: the answer was that the slave is to have his left eye ripped out for the insult.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
11 to 12, usually.
OK that is quite young to be learning about the Babylonians, I suppose.I must admit I had imagined the student would be 15 or so.

But since this is one of the earliest writing ever deciphered, one presumes the point is how distant these people were from us......or not, in the US context, perhaps.....
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
PS: the answer was that the slave is to have his left eye ripped out for the insult.
Yikes! Ego bruising was taken very seriously in those days. I tend to doubt that seeing your slave missing a left eye at your hand, would actually make you forget about the insult. It would seem a rather constant, and brutal reminder of it, like screaming it at you every day.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What were they thinking? Were they alt-right with a malignant agenda, or were they just confused, naive liberals who misguidedly thought this would be an important and valuable lesson?
Probably less than that, I assume. No deliberate move or decision in regards to timing, nothing dastardly or devious.
Just a simple "match game" sort of assignment.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So you don't see a difference between:

- learning facts about a slave-owning society, and
- requiring students to put themselves in the role of a slaver?

Interesting.
Why not? It puts it up front how one sided, dehumanizing, and bad slavery is. Not follow the law? That's not as easy as it sounds. It makes oppression more than just words on paper.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If it were just about the law, the question wouldn't have been "how will you punish this slave?"
The question is intended to get the student to apply the ideal in a theoretical situation, so that he/she knows how that ideal actually functioned in ancient times. It seems perfectly reasonable to me.
If the teacher wanted to ask what the Hammurabai Code specified as the punishment for a disobedient slave, they could have asked that question.

... and even that question probably isn't necessary to get kids to engage with the subject matter.
I'm still not seeing the cause for consternation, here. Why does anyone care that the students were asked to apply an ancient code of ethics in a hypothetical situation? Seems like a reasonable way of helping them to understand it, to me. I remember being asked to apply algebraic principals to hypothetical situations all the time in 6th grade. And to apply genetic probabilities for dominant and recessive traits, and so on. Hypothetical application is a very common teaching tool.

And why has the school board lost it's mind over this? Oh, right ... politics.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Yikes! Ego bruising was taken very seriously in those days. I tend to doubt that seeing your slave missing a left eye at your hand, would actually make you forget about the insult. It would seem a rather constant, and brutal reminder of it, like screaming it at you every day.

It was the same for children rejecting their fathers and running away from home. Mesopotamians were a very hierarchical society and any attack on your ''better'' is seen as an attack on the culture itself, hence the harsh punishment.

PS: my student personnal favorite is that a man who pierce a whole in someone else's house is to be killed and burried in front of the hole. They think it's comicaly brutal.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sun Prairie school calls slavery question a “grave error in judgement” (nbc15.com)

These are the kinds of stories which make me shake my head and wonder. How do these things happen? Aren't teachers supposed to have college degrees and some kind of awareness? I'm just curious as to the thought processes which led to them creating this exercise and assigning it to students. That's what always seems to be missing in stories like this, since no journalist ever thinks to ask such questions.



This assignment was given on the first day of Black History Month.



One person called it "a lack of cultural competency," which I would agree with.



I wish they had said something about the education and background of the teachers who conceived of this assignment. What were they thinking? Were they alt-right with a malignant agenda, or were they just confused, naive liberals who misguidedly thought this would be an important and valuable lesson?
It seems to be a good & fascinating question.
Alas, some things cannot be discussed.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
The problem I see with this is that it opens the door to the idea that slaves should be punished under certain circumstances, instead of teaching what I'd rather be the standard, which is that slavery (that is, sincerely believing that you literally own another person) is the thinking of complete and utter dumb-asses. The "failure in judgment" in this situation, in my opinion, is anyone discussing slavery as if it is just a "fact of life" or some such. Sure - teach that it was something that was done, but you follow that up with a serious discussion of whether or not it is even possible to "own" another person in any objective sense.

Besides this, this is EXACTLY the sort of flimsy moral treatment of slavery that The Bible provides. Instead of condemning slavery, The Bible actively discusses when physical punishment of a slave has gone too far - and (more disturbingly) when it hasn't gone too far and is not to be punished as an act itself. This is crap. No way should we be presenting slavery with any sort of moral ambiguity whatsoever to impressionable minds. Especially if the "crime" that the slave is going to be punished for in the scenario is nothing but "disrespect." What another load of crap that is alone. "Disrespect?!" Seriously? Slave owners... get over yourselves. I feel absolutely ZERO sympathy for anyone worried over singular acts of disrespect that don't result in actual physical damage (like libel/slander affecting business/income, or damage to reputation, etc.) ZERO sympathy. Get over YOURSELF. Or, more aptly... develop some freaking self-respect. You don't have any if mere words "hurt."

This "lesson" (whatever the intent) reeks of stupidity all around. A huge lack of perspective in my estimation.
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
My position is that if the parents don't want it taught then the school shouldn't teach it. Its their kids, and they ultimately bear any responsibility for what happens with their kids and are the only irreplaceable authority in the situation.

I do not think this question was inappropriate unless it was asked in the wrong way for the wrong reasons or if the teacher did it to provoke the parents. It could have been an honest mistake and an attempt to undo the problems created by social segregation. I don't know the details. The parents have the last call on this though. I'm against complete government control over what is taught to students. On the other hand I don't think the school should be liable for damages in this instance since it reacted swiftly to parental objections.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
My position is that if the parents don't want it taught then the school shouldn't teach it. Its their kids, and they ultimately bear any responsibility for what happens with their kids and are the only irreplaceable authority in the situation.

I disagree. Education is a fundamental right of children and humans in general. Depriving a child of knowledge is akin to deprive an adult from their right to political representation, property or religious freedom. The State and society in general has a responsability to educate children and teens with the best available knowledge and material so that children may be free to choose how they live and why.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Article said:
”A slave stands before you. This slave has disrespected his master by telling him ‘You are not my master’ How will you punish this slave?”
I just want to delve a bit more into this, in particular - the actual question.

If "the master" has even a shred of brain in his head, then he understands that the slave (any slave) is constantly thinking "You are not my master" or "You do not really own me" every moment of every day in which they interact with "the master." Even one shred of brain would inform ANYONE of this very fact.

The person who would rather everyone just fear them, and leave that the reason that they all keep their dissenting opinions to themselves is a COWARD. And THIS is a far more important lesson to be teaching ANYONE.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree. Education is a fundamental right of children and humans in general. Depriving a child of knowledge is akin to deprive an adult from their right to political representation, property or religious freedom. The State and society in general has a responsability to educate children and teens with the best available knowledge and material so that children may be free to choose how they live and why.
Preliminary: in my world rights are things people already have which the government either recognizes or fails to, not things government gives them. I realize in the UN and other places they think they're given by government. I don't agree with that. Its not a good practice for a government to believe it may grant rights, but that is only tangential and to make my position clear.

Children have a natural right to (at least) two parents; but they don't always get those, and that illustrates not everybody gets what we have rights to. I don't, however, view education as a right though there is an incumbent ethical burden upon society to help educate children. Its a little bit like a right, but its not urgent compared to the right to parents and family. Society not government. Since when could government be trusted not to turn public schooling into a mind control program? Since never. I argue children need parents and family more urgently than they need education, and they need a free society more than provided education programs. Freedom encourages education more than government, whose primary interest is not in freedom but the restriction of it.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The purpose of this lesson is not just to teach facts, it's to teach kids to think; to consider implications and see ramifications. Granted, ten or twelve year olds won't be very good at this. Their thinking is pretty black or white. Multi-factor, multi-step thinking and seeing ramifications is challenging to them -- which is what education is all about. It's why there's a teacher to guide the dialogue.

Teaching simple facts without teaching their implications and how to evaluate them is not education, Failure to teach complex, multi-step reasoning and consideration of ramifications will produce nothing but Republicans.

Some of the questions this lesson raises:

Is the slave telling the truth? Did his master steal him from a neighbor or enslave him illegally? Should this be established before judgement is passed?

What was the Code of Hammurabi, and why is it historically significant?

Why is a slave obligated to respect his master?
What should respect be based on?

Why does disrespect elicit hostility?

Why does one man have the right to own or pass judgement on another?

Is the institution of slavery just? Why -- show your work.

\If so/not, what are the social and moral implications? How should they dictate the sentence?

Was slavery necessary in this particular society?
Why did it exist? What was its function? What would be the effects if it didn't exist?

What would happen if the charge were dismissed? What would the social and political effects be?

If slavery be unjust, what psychological/sociological features allows it to exist or be tolerated?

Are there analogous or similar situations in our own society?
Examples? Implications?

Isn't teaching kids to think the purpose of education?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The purpose of this lesson is not just to teach facts, it's to teach kids to think; to consider implications and see ramifications. Granted, ten or twelve year olds won't be very good at this. Their thinking is pretty black or white. Multi-factor, multi-step thinking and seeing ramifications is challenging to them -- which is what education is all about. It's why there's a teacher to guide the dialogue.

Teaching simple facts without teaching their implications and how to evaluate them is not education, Failure to teach complex, multi-step reasoning and consideration of ramifications will produce nothing but Republicans.

Some of the questions this lesson raises:

Is the slave telling the truth? Did his master steal him from a neighbor or enslave him illegally? Should this be established before judgement is passed?

What was the Code of Hammurabi, and why is it historically significant?

Why is a slave obligated to respect his master?
What should respect be based on?

Why does disrespect elicit hostility?

Why does one man have the right to own or pass judgement on another?

Is the institution of slavery just? Why -- show your work.

\If so/not, what are the social and moral implications? How should they dictate the sentence?

Was slavery necessary in this particular society?
Why did it exist? What was its function? What would be the effects if it didn't exist?

What would happen if the charge were dismissed? What would the social and political effects be?

If slavery be unjust, what psychological/sociological features allows it to exist or be tolerated?

Are there analogous or similar situations in our own society?
Examples? Implications?

Isn't teaching kids to think the purpose of education?
Many elucidating points! That last sentence is an opinion about what government education should be, because this is public government controlled education. How can it be trusted to teach children how to think? As for Republicans do you think they came from private schools? They were public educated, too, many or most of them. Public education is not tooled for teaching people to think independently. Who has more public education than China? Why then don't Chinese people point out problems in government? Its cause they've been taught not to see those problems, and that is because the government has absolutely control of what is considered important, factual, beneficent.

Here we have a school system in Wisconsin that knows its got to placate the parents. Maybe the parents are backwards, but they aren't government spies and controls.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Why not? It puts it up front how one sided, dehumanizing, and bad slavery is. Not follow the law? That's not as easy as it sounds. It makes oppression more than just words on paper.
But they would learn oppression
from the oppressor's point of view, no?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
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