Witchcraft in Judaism

[dantech]

I'm going to have to look for it more. I thought it would be in there. I'll let you know.

 

[dantech]

I read through the Me'am Loez that you posted and I didn't see anything stating that mel'achim Aza and Az'El left the service of Hashem. I also didn't see anything in the text that points to the concept of "black magic" or even specifically anything that was proven to work/powers that Bilam actually had that worked on consistant basis. I.e. what I see in the Hebrew describes the same kind of stuff that other Ovdei Avodah Zara have done in the past and what is done today.

For example, the text that you posted states that Balaq was seeking out the (קוסמים) to:

ישבר מזלם ויחליש את כחם​

This translates into: "To break their luck/success and to weaken their strength." Further, it explains that Balaq went to Bilam because it was beleived by the locals that Bilam had knowledge (נחש) "interpretation of omens/signs, etc." and (מגיד עתידות) "future telling/fortune telling" that doesn't really translate into "black magic." Also, it is important to note that the description in the page you posted doesn't state that on his own Bilam actually had these powers. I.e. in reality he had access to something that in reality was fixed, proven to work in all situaitons, and worked idependantly.

It further states that some say that Bilam. at first, was a (פותר חלומות) "someone who gives solutions to dreams"; same as what Yoseph was called. Yet, after a certain time he became a (קוסם). Important to note, (קסם) is defined as "decision making based on lot or sign; or by using tools to make predictions." Rambam describes all of these types in Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodah Zara 11:4-7.

It further says, after he did that [i.e. after he wasn't a Qosem anymore] he was able to get some (רוח הקודש) and he was able to be a navi for the situation mentioned in the parashah. Yet, from what it written his nevuah was only for the sake of what he stated in the parashah concerning the future of Am Yisrael. Yet, nothing beyond that.

We know from the archeological record that Bilam was actually historically "considered" by some of the local population to be someone who determine elements of the future.

So, is there something that is mentioned that gives the impression that he some actual proven powers?

So I opened the book up again, and two pages later, under the same pasuk, it speaks about the Uza and Azael.... (On the photo)

On the second photo, it starts explaining what Bilaam had to do to learn the כשפים.

It goes into more detail about what he actually had to do to learn from Uza and Aza'el.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So I opened the book up again, and two pages later, under the same pasuk, it speaks about the Uza and Azael.... (On the photo)

On the second photo, it starts explaining what Bilaam had to do to learn the כשפים.

It goes into more detail about what he actually had to do to learn from Uza and Aza'el.

Thanks. I read through both pages.

So let's put this all together.

1. Me'am Lo'ez (Hebrew: מעם לועז‎), initiated by Rabbi Yaakov Culi in 1730, is a widely studied commentary on the Tanakh written in Ladino.
   
2. Rabbi Culi explains each chapter in detail according to the Midrash and Talmud, as well as discussing the relevant Halacha as based on the Shulchan Aruch and Mishneh Torah. In his introduction Rabbi Culi personally guarantees that "everyone who reads the Me'am Loez every day will be able to answer in Heaven that he has learned the whole Torah, because all aspects of the Torah are covered on it".
   
3. While Rabbi Culi died only two years later after completing the Book of Genesis and 2/3 of Exodus, due to its mass popularity—and the extensive notes already written by Rabbi Culi—a decision was taken to complete the commentaries. Rabbi Yitzhak Magriso completed Exodus, and wrote the commentary on the books of Leviticus and Numbers.

So, it would appear that Me'am Lo'ez is combining all of the different Midrashic and Talmudic views together in one. That being said, I noticed the following:

1. According to the Me'am Lo'ez Balaq was well versed in (כשפים) but nothing he tried worked against Am Yisrael.
   • According to Rambam (כשפים) is (אינן דברי חכמה, אלא תוהו והבל שנמשכו בהן חסרי הדעת, ונטשו כל דרכי האמת בגללן) i.e. that practices are not true/i.e. not real.
   • We also know the saying (אין מזל לישראל)
   • So when Balaq realized that what he was doing wasn't working he went to having Am Yisrael cursed.
   • Balaq was more of expert in (כשף) then Bilam and didn't go to him at first.
   • It states that Balaq only went to Bilam after he did the (קסם) that involves using a bird as a type of sign/omen. (Explaining why he was called ben-Tzipor)
   • The bird was sent to the dark mountains and when it came back and landed in his hand - there was a type of fire on its wings. This scared him since it was going to far for him and he says (אין זה לשוא) and he decided he himself wouldn't go further with this route and that is when he sent people to Bilam to have Bilam to get advice on what to do.
2. This page after asks the question of why the location where the bird was sent was called (גילוי עינים).
   • This goes into the story of the melachim.
   • It is important to note that this story does not say that they rebelled against Hashem.
   • It states that they during the generation of the mabul they asked why man was created if man were going to do all of the Avodah Zara and other aveiroth.
   • Why this matters, is because continuing it mentions that they requested from Hashem the chance to go to the earth and sanctify Hashem's name and that they would not do aveiroth.
   • Hashem gave them ability to come to earth to see if they would come to earth and not do aveiroth as they claimed.
   • They came to earth and then they did do aveirtoh with the daughters of men (due to the yetzer hara) and that they used names of Tumah (טומאה) .
   • From there it states that Hashem imprisoned them in the dark mountains.
   • The point the midrash, for this section, seems to make is that because man has free will and melachim don't why create man that he can choose to go against Hashem. In this scenario the Midrash presents is that the yetzer hara is something that anyone who has it can fall if they don't stregthen themselves in Torah.
     
   • Given that other sources like the Sepher HaYashar, which the Me'om Loez also uses as a source in other places, have a similar story but places men of Hochma as the melakhim I don't get the impression that this was meant to 100% historical, but that is my opinion.
3. Next page gets into the details about how Bilam did the (כשוף) part, appears to be before he went the nevuah route.
   • Mentions that the method he had to use, according to their standard practice of this kind of stuff.
   • He figured that he had to get some higher level knowledge. Kind of like level of the Creator kind of stuff.
   • For the sake of doing this kind he needed all kinds of Tumah. This included becoming a Cofer to Hashem.
   • He had to go to the mountain where the two melakhim were imprisoned and do a Qorban to them and state that he knows of their "elohut" claim that they were an (אלוה),
   • He seperated himself from qedusha and went to tumah.
   • He did all kind of stuff with a goat and various body parts of the goat. (I won't give all the gory details.)
   • Burned it up, divided it up, burned it up again. Took what was left and went to the dark mountains.
   • Met with them his eyes were opened and end of page.

Just from all of this, there are a number of ways one can take all of this. One is that humans have the free will do all kinds of things that are assur and understand all kinds of things that are assur. Some of which may influence the non-Torah based world. How one understands this may depend on how you understand how Hashem set up the "rules" of reality. I.e. there is a view that melakhim are simply aspects of how reality work. Including concepts of how things work. I.e. no free will but aspects reality. Thus, in this view Balak were trying to tap into aspects of reality that Hashem built for the universe to function with, including aspects of Tumah, and at the end of the day these methods are of no real use and won't work against Am Yisrael, especially when we keep the Torah.

Thus, at the end of the day Bilam said, "Send in the pretty girls and let Am Yisrael bring themselves down.....then you can wage war agains them."

 

[Jake1001]

Thanks. I read through both pages.

So let's put this all together.

1. Me'am Lo'ez (Hebrew: מעם לועז‎), initiated by Rabbi Yaakov Culi in 1730, is a widely studied commentary on the Tanakh written in Ladino.
   
2. Rabbi Culi explains each chapter in detail according to the Midrash and Talmud, as well as discussing the relevant Halacha as based on the Shulchan Aruch and Mishneh Torah. In his introduction Rabbi Culi personally guarantees that "everyone who reads the Me'am Loez every day will be able to answer in Heaven that he has learned the whole Torah, because all aspects of the Torah are covered on it".
   
3. While Rabbi Culi died only two years later after completing the Book of Genesis and 2/3 of Exodus, due to its mass popularity—and the extensive notes already written by Rabbi Culi—a decision was taken to complete the commentaries. Rabbi Yitzhak Magriso completed Exodus, and wrote the commentary on the books of Leviticus and Numbers.

So, it would appear that Me'am Lo'ez is combining all of the different Midrashic and Talmudic views together in one. That being said, I noticed the following:

1. According to the Me'am Lo'ez Balaq was well versed in (כשפים) but nothing he tried worked against Am Yisrael.
   • According to Rambam (כשפים) is (אינן דברי חכמה, אלא תוהו והבל שנמשכו בהן חסרי הדעת, ונטשו כל דרכי האמת בגללן) i.e. that practices are not true/i.e. not real.
   • We also know the saying (אין מזל לישראל)
   • So when Balaq realized that what he was doing wasn't working he went to having Am Yisrael cursed.
   • Balaq was more of expert in (כשף) then Bilam and didn't go to him at first.
   • It states that Balaq only went to Bilam after he did the (קסם) that involves using a bird as a type of sign/omen. (Explaining why he was called ben-Tzipor)
   • The bird was sent to the dark mountains and when it came back and landed in his hand - there was a type of fire on its wings. This scared him since it was going to far for him and he says (אין זה לשוא) and he decided he himself wouldn't go further with this route and that is when he sent people to Bilam to have Bilam to get advice on what to do.
2. This page after asks the question of why the location where the bird was sent was called (גילוי עינים).
   • This goes into the story of the melachim.
   • It is important to note that this story does not say that they rebelled against Hashem.
   • It states that they during the generation of the mabul they asked why man was created if man were going to do all of the Avodah Zara and other aveiroth.
   • Why this matters, is because continuing it mentions that they requested from Hashem the chance to go to the earth and sanctify Hashem's name and that they would not do aveiroth.
   • Hashem gave them ability to come to earth to see if they would come to earth and not do aveiroth as they claimed.
   • They came to earth and then they did do aveirtoh with the daughters of men (due to the yetzer hara) and that they used names of Tumah (טומאה) .
   • From there it states that Hashem imprisoned them in the dark mountains.
   • The point the midrash, for this section, seems to make is that because man has free will and melachim don't why create man that he can choose to go against Hashem. In this scenario the Midrash presents is that the yetzer hara is something that anyone who has it can fall if they don't stregthen themselves in Torah.
     
   • Given that other sources like the Sepher HaYashar, which the Me'om Loez also uses as a source in other places, have a similar story but places men of Hochma as the melakhim I don't get the impression that this was meant to 100% historical, but that is my opinion.
3. Next page gets into the details about how Bilam did the (כשוף) part, appears to be before he went the nevuah route.
   • Mentions that the method he had to use, according to their standard practice of this kind of stuff.
   • He figured that he had to get some higher level knowledge. Kind of like level of the Creator kind of stuff.
   • For the sake of doing this kind he needed all kinds of Tumah. This included becoming a Cofer to Hashem.
   • He had to go to the mountain where the two melakhim were imprisoned and do a Qorban to them and state that he knows of their "elohut" claim that they were an (אלוה),
   • He seperated himself from qedusha and went to tumah.
   • He did all kind of stuff with a goat and various body parts of the goat. (I won't give all the gory details.)
   • Burned it up, divided it up, burned it up again. Took what was left and went to the dark mountains.
   • Met with them his eyes were opened and end of page.

Just from all of this, there are a number of ways one can take all of this. One is that humans have the free will do all kinds of things that are assur and understand all kinds of things that are assur. Some of which may influence the non-Torah based world. How one understands this may depend on how you understand how Hashem set up the "rules" of reality. I.e. there is a view that melakhim are simply aspects of how reality work. Including concepts of how things work. I.e. no free will but aspects reality. Thus, in this view Balak were trying to tap into aspects of reality that Hashem built for the universe to function with, including aspects of Tumah, and at the end of the day these methods are of no real use and won't work against Am Yisrael, especially when we keep the Torah.

Thus, at the end of the day Bilam said, "Send in the pretty girls and let Am Yisrael bring themselves down.....then you can wage war agains them."

Wow, thats a big one ! But the last line is interesting about sending in the pretty girls !

 

[dantech]

Thanks. I read through both pages.

So let's put this all together.

1. Me'am Lo'ez (Hebrew: מעם לועז‎), initiated by Rabbi Yaakov Culi in 1730, is a widely studied commentary on the Tanakh written in Ladino.
   
2. Rabbi Culi explains each chapter in detail according to the Midrash and Talmud, as well as discussing the relevant Halacha as based on the Shulchan Aruch and Mishneh Torah. In his introduction Rabbi Culi personally guarantees that "everyone who reads the Me'am Loez every day will be able to answer in Heaven that he has learned the whole Torah, because all aspects of the Torah are covered on it".
   
3. While Rabbi Culi died only two years later after completing the Book of Genesis and 2/3 of Exodus, due to its mass popularity—and the extensive notes already written by Rabbi Culi—a decision was taken to complete the commentaries. Rabbi Yitzhak Magriso completed Exodus, and wrote the commentary on the books of Leviticus and Numbers.

So, it would appear that Me'am Lo'ez is combining all of the different Midrashic and Talmudic views together in one. That being said, I noticed the following:

1. According to the Me'am Lo'ez Balaq was well versed in (כשפים) but nothing he tried worked against Am Yisrael.
   • According to Rambam (כשפים) is (אינן דברי חכמה, אלא תוהו והבל שנמשכו בהן חסרי הדעת, ונטשו כל דרכי האמת בגללן) i.e. that practices are not true/i.e. not real.
   • We also know the saying (אין מזל לישראל)
   • So when Balaq realized that what he was doing wasn't working he went to having Am Yisrael cursed.
   • Balaq was more of expert in (כשף) then Bilam and didn't go to him at first.
   • It states that Balaq only went to Bilam after he did the (קסם) that involves using a bird as a type of sign/omen. (Explaining why he was called ben-Tzipor)
   • The bird was sent to the dark mountains and when it came back and landed in his hand - there was a type of fire on its wings. This scared him since it was going to far for him and he says (אין זה לשוא) and he decided he himself wouldn't go further with this route and that is when he sent people to Bilam to have Bilam to get advice on what to do.
2. This page after asks the question of why the location where the bird was sent was called (גילוי עינים).
   • This goes into the story of the melachim.
   • It is important to note that this story does not say that they rebelled against Hashem.
   • It states that they during the generation of the mabul they asked why man was created if man were going to do all of the Avodah Zara and other aveiroth.
   • Why this matters, is because continuing it mentions that they requested from Hashem the chance to go to the earth and sanctify Hashem's name and that they would not do aveiroth.
   • Hashem gave them ability to come to earth to see if they would come to earth and not do aveiroth as they claimed.
   • They came to earth and then they did do aveirtoh with the daughters of men (due to the yetzer hara) and that they used names of Tumah (טומאה) .
   • From there it states that Hashem imprisoned them in the dark mountains.
   • The point the midrash, for this section, seems to make is that because man has free will and melachim don't why create man that he can choose to go against Hashem. In this scenario the Midrash presents is that the yetzer hara is something that anyone who has it can fall if they don't stregthen themselves in Torah.
     
   • Given that other sources like the Sepher HaYashar, which the Me'om Loez also uses as a source in other places, have a similar story but places men of Hochma as the melakhim I don't get the impression that this was meant to 100% historical, but that is my opinion.
3. Next page gets into the details about how Bilam did the (כשוף) part, appears to be before he went the nevuah route.
   • Mentions that the method he had to use, according to their standard practice of this kind of stuff.
   • He figured that he had to get some higher level knowledge. Kind of like level of the Creator kind of stuff.
   • For the sake of doing this kind he needed all kinds of Tumah. This included becoming a Cofer to Hashem.
   • He had to go to the mountain where the two melakhim were imprisoned and do a Qorban to them and state that he knows of their "elohut" claim that they were an (אלוה),
   • He seperated himself from qedusha and went to tumah.
   • He did all kind of stuff with a goat and various body parts of the goat. (I won't give all the gory details.)
   • Burned it up, divided it up, burned it up again. Took what was left and went to the dark mountains.
   • Met with them his eyes were opened and end of page.

Just from all of this, there are a number of ways one can take all of this. One is that humans have the free will do all kinds of things that are assur and understand all kinds of things that are assur. Some of which may influence the non-Torah based world. How one understands this may depend on how you understand how Hashem set up the "rules" of reality. I.e. there is a view that melakhim are simply aspects of how reality work. Including concepts of how things work. I.e. no free will but aspects reality. Thus, in this view Balak were trying to tap into aspects of reality that Hashem built for the universe to function with, including aspects of Tumah, and at the end of the day these methods are of no real use and won't work against Am Yisrael, especially when we keep the Torah.

Thus, at the end of the day Bilam said, "Send in the pretty girls and let Am Yisrael bring themselves down.....then you can wage war agains them."

I was not too far off, just from memory. For some reason I remembered it as the Malachim rebelling against God.

Just a sidebar, just because the magic didn't work against Am Israel, doesn't mean it didn't work.
It seems like Bilaam went through a lot of trouble in order to get insight on how to perform this dark magic, and was in fact learning the names of Tumah. So in the spirit of the thread, to me, it seems like this is the "source" for witchcraft that was looked for in the OP

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Just a sidebar, just because the magic didn't work against Am Israel, doesn't mean it didn't work.

The problem with the idea that it did work, or could possibly work, one would have to have measure the percentage of it working in their day. Also, does the method they were using work in our modern day? If not, why doesn't it work anymore?

If one were to test it and the percentage of success is low, especially when tested by a skeptic, then one can assume exactly what the Rambam claimed about it - worthless. That is why I posted the James Randy videos. Because often when tested these kinds of things don't prove themselves to have any use. Especially when you look at the amount of work it takes to get a quesitonable result.

 

[dantech]

The problem with the idea that it did work, or could possibly work, one would have to have measure the percentage of it working in their day. Also, does the method they were using work in our modern day? If not, why doesn't it work anymore?

If one were to test it and the percentage of success is low, especially when tested by a skeptic, then one can assume exactly what the Rambam claimed about it - worthless. That is why I posted the James Randy videos. Because often when tested these kinds of things don't prove themselves to have any use. Especially when you look at the amount of work it takes to get a quesitonable result.

What about the Egyptians turning their sticks into snakes? Or foreseeing the coming of Moshe, etc...

 

[Harel13]

I haven't managed to follow your back-and-forth. Bottom line, what source should I read?

 

[Harel13]

Any source BUT remember we are talking about midrashim. You may have to read all the various views because there are a number of them. That is why I post various because you may have to make a conclusion based on a summary view of several different sources and views.

"Any source" isn't helpful. @dantech mentioned a specific source, then you, @dybmh and dantech started a back-and-forth on the source. I'd like the correct source.

 

[dybmh]

"Any source" isn't helpful. @dantech mentioned a specific source, then you, @dybmh and dantech started a back-and-forth on the source. I'd like the correct source.

Well... My source is in English, and I'm still sorting out whether or not it's suitable for this discussion.

 

[Jake1001]

Concerning the "wise men" of Pharaoh:

1. According to Saadya Gaon in his commentary to the Torah he mentions (דבר הנעשה בחשאי ובהסתר) i.e. essentially slight of hand tricks. Also, mentioned in Emunoth and Deoth book 3 section 5 that they did things that were (כפא מסתורא אדא כשף) hidden to make their attempt work and that if one were to check it they would find that they were doing nonsense.
2. Malbim states that they took skins of dead tinim and the Hartumim were under the skins moving them to make them appear as if they were alive. He brings down also a midrash that claims that they brought in (תנוקות מן אסכולית שלהם) students from their schools to manipulate the skins to make it appear that they were alive.
3. Soferno states (עַל תַּבְנִית וּתְמוּנַת תַּנִּינִים, אֲבָל לא בִּתְנוּעָתָם) and also (לא הָיָה כחַ בַּחַרְטֻמִּים לָתֵת תְּנוּעָה בַּתַּנִּינִים) i.e. they could produce the form of tinim but they could not give it life/movement.

Concerning forseeing Mosheh Rabbeinu's birth.

1. According to the midrash Sepher HaYashar, Pharaoh had a dream and the interpretation from the dream from Bilam was that a child would be born to Am Yisrael who would cause the downfall of that empire of Egypt and would lead Am Yisrael out of Egypt. (Remember what Me'am Loez stated earlier that earlier Bilam started out as a interpreter of dreams before he went on to do Qosem.)
   • When Pharaoh asked for advice on what to do about the above and he requested advice from Reuel, Iyov, and Bilam. He took Bilam's advice but saw that Bilam's advice did not work. (He saw that Am Yisrael were still increasing in numbers.)
   • Later the Sepher HaYashar only states that Pharaoh suspected Mosheh was the one that the dream was about when he saw Mosheh as a child, who was in his court doing things that seemed to allude to the dream he had. (According to the midrash Bilam reminded him but that Hashem sent a malakh to confuse the situation.)
2. Rashi states, based on Shemoth 1:22 that the day Mosheh Rabbeinu was born, Pharaoh’s astrologers told him that a Jewish deliverer had been born, but they weren’t sure whether it would be someone of Am Yisrael or an Egyptian. Rashi further states that the Egyptian astrologers miscalculated by about 3 months. See below
   • אף עליהם גזר. יום שנולד משה אמרו לו אצטגניניו היום נולד מושיען, ואין אנו יודעין אם ממצרים אם מישראל, ורואין אנו שסופו ללקות במים, לפיכך גזר אותו היום אף על המצרים, שנאמר כל הבן הילוד, ולא נאמר הילוד לעברים, והם לא היו יודעים שסופו ללקות על מי מריבה.
3. There is a view, based on the above, that Pharaoh's astrolgers, and Bilam, really didn't know anything but simply provided a solution to Pharaoh's dream for either their own politcal reasons or just to satisfy Pharaoh's desires, based on the information he provided from his dram, in a way that it couldn't be 100% proven wrong.
4. Mosheh ben Haim of Mesora.org states: "So when they would make predictions, they would do so either in generalities, or in areas that one can never prove impossible. Alternatively, the astrologers saw that Pharaoh was now subjugating the Jews, as the Jews were more numerous, and possibly could pose a threat to the Egyptians. The astrologers surmised the possibility of an uprising, and weren’t sure whether it would be spearheaded by a Jew or an Egyptian sympathizer. They therefore used rational deduction in their forecast to Pharaoh and told him that it could be either a Jew or Egyptian savior. The fact that the astrologers could not determine Moses’ nationality, and that the second Rashi implies miscalculation, uncovers their ignorance, and removes any credibility of their astrology. Perhaps this is why Rashi recorded these two stories, to teach that their astrology is a farce. Just as people today cannot read palms, or foretell events, so too was the case in Egypt. Pharaoh positioned astrologers as a source of security to placate him at times when he was in doubt. All that was needed was that Pharaoh believed them. When objective reality could not be ascertained, emotional security filled the gap."
5. Mosheh ben Haim from Mesorah.org further states - "The astrologers were in positions of counsel due to Pharaoh’s need for advice. They counseled Pharaoh with general statements, such as those where they could not be proved wrong, i.e., “you will have 7 daughters, and you will bury 7 daughters”. If Pharaoh approached them and said, “Where are my 7 daughters?”, they could respond. “You will have them yet”. Similarly, they stated, “A savior of the Jews is to be born”. Pharaoh was superstitious, and out of a fear of an uprising, he, like any other leader insecure of his reign, might resort to following the only prospect for success, that being the astrologers’ advice of slaying even Egyptian males. Who said this was the only day they told Pharaoh that a savior could be born? Perhaps they said this on many occasions, and chance had it that they also said it on Moses’ birthday. Keep in mind that the astrologers previously stated that a savior is to be born. The first time they said this, they were unsure about his date of birth, and they were unsure about his origin, whether it was Egyptian or Hebrew. They were feigning knowledge of future events, as Pharaoh was looking to them for direction. They couldn’t say “we don’t know”. They would either lose their positions, or be killed. They therefore made general statements that had possibility of coming true, based on current events."

They seem to be getting longer . Why do we even discuss astrology? It just confuses the issues. Myself and the Rabbi’s are more rational observers, I think.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

They seem to be getting longer . Why do we even discuss astrology? It just confuses the issues.

I only responded because I asked a question.

If everyone wants I can delete the additonal topic and start a different thread.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay. I have deleted all of my responses that RF allows me to delete and I have moved the other topic to the following thread.

@dantech I have moved my responses to your questions to the below link.

Questions about (כשוף - קסם - חבר - חרש) Types of Avodah Zara

Sorry to all for disrupting this thread.