With bafflement upon bafflement!

[dybmh]

I think it's important to understand that all 'seed' begins as a single seed, but when planted in the field it grows to produce its own fruit. Evil fruit grows from an evil seed, and good fruit from a good seed. From a single seed one gets multiplication.

The Serpent, we are told, represents Satan, but his seed are those that do his bidding, consciously or unconsciously. Likewise, the seed of the woman, Christ Jesus, brings forth a generation 'in Christ', who act in accordance with God's Spirit.

To my understanding, the conflict between the good and evil 'seed' is apparent from the very beginning of scripture, but the good seed is held in promise by God's chosen people, lsrael. The great turning point of history occurs with Christ Jesus at the cross, when death is overcome and the 'resurrection life' begins. This is a new age.

So, the serpent is not crushed. Those in Christ are believed to be above it, or beyond it, or immune to it, but Gen 3;15 hasn't been fulfilled.

After I posted my question to you, another poster in another thread brought some verses of Matthew which I think confirm this. Matthew 13:40-43. There you go, sin still exists till the end of the age. Sin still exists, the serpent is still active, Gen 3:15 hasn't been fulfilled.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So, the serpent is not crushed. Those in Christ are believed to be above it, or beyond it, or immune to it, but Gen 3;15 hasn't been fulfilled.

After I posted my question to you, another poster in another thread brought some verses of Matthew which I think confirm this. Matthew 13:40-43. There you go, sin still exists till the end of the age. Sin still exists, the serpent is still active, Gen 3:15 hasn't been fulfilled.

You're correct in thinking that the battle continues until the day that Christ brings judgement.

Psalm 110:1. 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until l make thine enemies they footstool'.

The victory over death was won on the cross, but the victory was won by a single seed. From that single seed a harvest must be gathered. This harvest is the bride of Christ, his spiritual body.

Jew and Gentile make up the body of Christ. In gathering his people, and sanctifying them, God is also dividing the world into two.

Matthew 10:34. 'Think not that l am come to send peace on the earth: l came not to send peace, but a sword'.

Peace is something a believer finds in Christ, not in the world.

 

[dybmh]

You're correct in thinking that the battle continues until the day that Christ brings judgement.

OK, we agree that Gen 3:15 is not fulfilled yet. That one is still pending. I'll move on to the next ones in the list.

 

[Redemptionsong]

OK, we agree that Gen 3:15 is not fulfilled yet. That one is still pending. I'll move on to the next ones in the list.

Some aspects of Genesis 3:15 have already been fulfilled. Jesus was born of a woman's seed, not a man's seed.

 

[dybmh]

Some aspects of Genesis 3:15 have already been fulfilled. Jesus was born of a woman's seed, not a man's seed.

Well... this introduces a problem with a few of the other prophecies on your list. If Jesus is seed of woman not man, then he cannot be the seed of Abraham, or seed of Isaac, or the seed of Jacob.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well... this introduces a problem with a few of the other prophecies on your list. If Jesus is seed of woman not man, then he cannot be the seed of Abraham, or seed of Isaac, or the seed of Jacob.

We've been here before, but allow me to restate the case.

Matthew's Gospel gives us the royal line from Abraham and David, through to Joseph, the husband of Mary.

Luke gives us Mary's ancestors through her father, Heli. This is the natural line through Nathan, the son of David.

Follow Mary's line back and you will find that she, too, is descended from Abraham, lsaac and Jacob. See Luke 3:34.

And whilst on the subject of Mary, let's consider her virginity.

Sceptics like to point out what they see as an error in the KJV translation of lsaiah 7:14, but the translation of 'young woman' into 'virgin' is actually an assumption based on supporting scriptures.

If you read Deuteronomy 22:13-21, then it is quite apparent that a young lsraelite woman 'taken to wife' was expected to be a virgin.

Matthew 1:18-23 confirms that the young Mary was a virgin.

 

[Elihoenai]

Writing some 700 years before the birth of Jesus, Isaiah provides a wonderful prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

But I'd like to begin with what the witnesses at Pentecost said about their own experience, fifty days after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 2:1-13 tells the whole story. Verse 13 ends with the mocking words of the doubters, 'These men are full of new wine'!

At this point, Peter stood before the crowd in Jerusalem, along with the eleven other apostles, and said, 'Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:'

Now, instead of turning to the prophet Joel, let's return to Isaiah. In Isaiah 29:9 it says, (KJV) 'Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.'

Do you notice that Isaiah is speaking about 'they', as a people somehow estranged from the Jews, whom he refers to as 'you' and 'yours' ? Yet, we know that Peter and the apostles were all descendants of Abraham. Then, to make the estrangement even more poignant, Isaiah says (verse 10), 'For the LORD has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.'

In 2 Corinthians 3:13,14, Paul says, 'And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.'

So, it is Christ who opens the sealed book, as it says in Revelation 5:9: 'And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.'

IMO, it's powerful stuff. What do Torah Jews make of Isaiah's prophecy?

Revelation 5:1

5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.


Given that Messiah/Christ loose the Seals, who Sealed the Book?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Revelation 5:1

5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.


Given that Messiah/Christ loose the Seals, who Sealed the Book?

I would say that God the Father sealed the book, and sent his Son to loose the seals.

 

[Elihoenai]

I would say that God the Father sealed the book, and sent his Son to loose the seals.

Is this Wild Speculation or do you have Holy Scriptures to support your assertion that Elohim/God the Father Seals the Book?

 

[dybmh]

We've been here before, but allow me to restate the case.

Apologies for asking you to repeat. I wasn't aware that you addressed the contradiction between "Jesus as seed of woman not man" and a lineage which is clearly "seed of man and woman".

Matthew's Gospel gives us the royal line from Abraham and David, through to Joseph, the husband of Mary.

Luke gives us Mary's ancestors through her father, Heli. This is the natural line through Nathan, the son of David.

Assuming it's true, I have no objections. I don't feel any need to dispute Jesus' lineage.

Sceptics like to point out what they see as an error in the KJV translation of lsaiah 7:14, but the translation of 'young woman' into 'virgin' is actually an assumption based on supporting scriptures.

Well, there's certainly good reason to doubt the translation choice. Expecting the text to say 'virgin' when it means 'virgin' is *hopefully* not something which you attribute to spiritual blindness?

If you read Deuteronomy 22:13-21, then it is quite apparent that a young lsraelite woman 'taken to wife' was expected to be a virgin.

I think the weak point of this reasoning is the assumption that the "young woman" in Isa 7:14 isn't married.

But still, even if Mary is the only parent, the lineage you provided includes a man, so Jesus is the seed of both man and woman.

Thoughts?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Apologies for asking you to repeat. I wasn't aware that you addressed the contradiction between "Jesus as seed of woman not man" and a lineage which is clearly "seed of man and woman".

Assuming it's true, I have no objections. I don't feel any need to dispute Jesus' lineage.

Well, there's certainly good reason to doubt the translation choice. Expecting the text to say 'virgin' when it means 'virgin' is *hopefully* not something which you attribute to spiritual blindness?

I think the weak point of this reasoning is the assumption that the "young woman" in Isa 7:14 isn't married.

But still, even if Mary is the only parent, the lineage you provided includes a man, so Jesus is the seed of both man and woman.

Thoughts?

Matthew 1:18 reads, 'Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost'.

So, the conception of Mary took place during the time of their espousal, and it was an angel who told Joseph not to reject her. Had Joseph made this information public, Mary may have been stoned to death.

It's because Joseph was not the natural father of Jesus, that Luke writes,
''And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,'

Mary's lineage is traced through her father, Heli. This gives us the natural line of Jesus. Matthew presents the royal line of Joseph, but the curse on Jeconiah meant that since the time of the Babylonian exile there had not been a king in Judah. The royal line existed in theory but not in practice.

Only by marrying Mary, did Joseph manage to unite the royal Davidic line with the Davidic line of Mary. Their child then becomes royalty.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Is this Wild Speculation or do you have Holy Scriptures to support your assertion that Elohim/God the Father Seals the Book?

Since the books are the word of God, who do you imagine could have sealed them had it not been God the Father?

 

[dybmh]

Mary's lineage is traced through her father, Heli.

So through Mary Jesus is the seed of Heli. Jesus was seed of man and woman.

but the curse on Jeconiah meant that since the time of the Babylonian exile there had not been a king in Judah

The curse of Jeconiah was lifted. Jeconiah had children.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So through Mary Jesus is the seed of Heli. Jesus was seed of man and woman.

The curse of Jeconiah was lifted. Jeconiah had children.

Jesus is born of Mary, whose father was Heli. The lineage follows the male line throughout Luke's genealogy. Therefore, Joseph is the husband of Mary, and son in law of Heli.

The curse on Jeconiah was not lifted. Why would God contradict Himself?

Jeconiah's seed never sat on the throne in Judah. Can you provide evidence that his seed did sit upon the throne?

 

[Elihoenai]

Since the books are the word of God, who do you imagine could have sealed them had it not been God the Father?

2 Timothy 3:7

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


I don't do any Wild Speculation or Imagining having Absolute Certainty about Doctrine. Christendom is full with people that use their Own Imagination about what this or that Holy Scripture might mean and Never in their lifetime Reaching Absolute Certainty.

What I post on these Forums is what Elohim/God told me I'm Allowed to Post. There are Doctrines for Private and Public Consumption. Private Doctrines are for the Few hundred/thousand Elect or those Aspiring to Join this Elect. Why do you think Elohim/God Provides Private and Public Doctrines?

 

[Redemptionsong]

2 Timothy 3:7

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


I don't do any Wild Speculation or Imagining having Absolute Certainty about Doctrine. Christendom is full with people that use their Own Imagination about what this or that Holy Scripture might mean and Never in their lifetime Reaching Absolute Certainty.

What I post on these Forums is what Elohim/God told me I'm Allowed to Post. There are Doctrines for Private and Public Consumption. Private Doctrines are for the Few hundred/thousand Elect or those Aspiring to Join this Elect. Why do you think Elohim/God Provides Private and Public Doctrines?

The love of God has the power to unite in Spirit. Were you aware of this?

I also follow scripture, but l allow the Holy Spirit to lead me.

Here are some relevant scriptures:
Isaiah 8:16: 'Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples'.

The 'my' here refers to the LORD of Hosts.

So, who is it that unseals the testimony?
Revelation 5:1: 'And l saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals
And l saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?'

The answer to this question is given in verse 9. It's the Lamb of God that is worthy to open the seals.

Now, rather than using my imagination, l have made connections between scriptures. I am aware that God sealed the book, just as he commanded Daniel (11:4 and 12:9), and that these seals are only opened by Christ and his disciples (the body of Christ).

If you understand differently, l'd be interested to see the relevant scriptures that prove otherwise.

 

[Elihoenai]

The love of God has the power to unite in Spirit. Were you aware of this?

I also follow scripture, but l allow the Holy Spirit to lead me.

Here are some relevant scriptures:
Isaiah 8:16: 'Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples'.

The 'my' here refers to the LORD of Hosts.

So, who is it that unseals the testimony?
Revelation 5:1: 'And l saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals
And l saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?'

The answer to this question is given in verse 9. It's the Lamb of God that is worthy to open the seals.

Now, rather than using my imagination, l have made connections between scriptures. I am aware that God sealed the book, just as he commanded Daniel (11:4 and 12:9), and that these seals are only opened by Christ and his disciples (the body of Christ).

If you understand differently, l'd be interested to see the relevant scriptures that prove otherwise.

Since I Am Transitioning to the few hundred/thousand Elect, than Obviously I'm Aware in relation to your first question.


Before we go any further, @Redemptionsong, what is your Religion? I went on your profile to get info and there is none to be found about your Religion. I think it is Inconsiderate for Members on these Forums Not to Declare their Religion. Members that Fail to declare their Religion cannot be taken Seriously. Your Religion Defines who you are and is the Most Important aspect of a persons life.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Since I Am Transitioning to the few hundred/thousand Elect, than Obviously I'm Aware in relation to your first question.


Before we go any further, @Redemptionsong, what is your Religion? I went on your profile to get info and there is none to be found about your Religion. I think it is Inconsiderate for Members on these Forums Not to Declare their Religion. Members that Fail to declare their Religion cannot be taken Seriously. Your Religion Defines who you are and is the Most Important aspect of a persons life.

While you're transitioning to the Elect, l'm happy to be counted amongst the humble and contrite in spirit.

And, no, you won't find me talking about my 'religion' because faith in Jesus Christ is not a religion. Jesus Christ is a person, and is known to me personally through the Holy Spirit.

The Lord Jesus leads, l follow.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus is born of Mary, whose father was Heli. The lineage follows the male line throughout Luke's genealogy. Therefore, Joseph is the husband of Mary, and son in law of Heli.

And so, he was seed of man and woman. If he was only seed of woman, then he canot be seed of abraham, isaac, and jacob. You're not explaining / reconciling the contradiction. The simple solution is, seed of anyone is both man and women. Seed of Eve includes Adam. Seed of Abraham includes Sarah, seed of Isaac includes Rebecca, etc... We already agree Gen 3:15 hasn't been fulfilled. Whomever crushes the primodial serpent fulfills the verse. Even if Jesus is born from a virgin, he can still fulfill Gen 3:15 in the future. Agreed?

The curse on Jeconiah was not lifted. Why would God contradict Himself?

The curse says Jeconiah will be childless, yet Jeconiah has 7 children. Something must have changed, or Jeremiah's curse didn't work. Why would God lift the curse? Because Jeconiah repented and his repentence was accepted. God is merciful and can annul negative decress.
Isn't your God merciful?

Jeconiah's seed never sat on the throne in Judah. Can you provide evidence that his seed did sit upon the throne?

No, but he was supposed to be childless and he wasn't.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And so, he was seed of man and woman. If he was only seed of woman, then he canot be seed of abraham, isaac, and jacob. You're not explaining / reconciling the contradiction. The simple solution is, seed of anyone is both man and women. Seed of Eve includes Adam. Seed of Abraham includes Sarah, seed of Isaac includes Rebecca, etc... We already agree Gen 3:15 hasn't been fulfilled. Whomever crushes the primodial serpent fulfills the verse. Even if Jesus is born from a virgin, he can still fulfill Gen 3:15 in the future. Agreed?

Yes, l believe that the Christ of God is sent to crush the head of the Serpent.

Was Jesus human? Yes, because he was born of a woman who conceived and was pregnant for nine months.

How did Mary conceive, given that she was a virgin? She was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, making her conception an act of God. Such an act also makes the 'seed' both the Son of God and Son of man.

In the theology of the Torah Jew, there can be no Messiah, Son of God. The Messiah is 100% human, and a son of David. The difficulty here is that the children of Israel are viewed as being a corporate 'son of God' [see Hosea 11:1] Yet, when one tries to apply this idea with consistency, it is difficult to maintain [see Psalms 2:12].

Can the Messiah be the Son of man, king over a people who are God's 'Son'? Does this not make the people, lsrael, greater than their head?