Because of this post I did look this up and read on it. There's nothing I saw in the accounts of the sun growing in size, turning red and "charging the earth", nor the muddy ground and wet clothes all being dry. The accounts I read stuck to the facts, of course, so perhaps the rendition you got those elements from suffer from the effects you get from things like the kindergarten "telephone" game.
Also, with not everyone present experiencing the "dancing sun" phenomenon, and not all accounts from even those claiming they saw something matching, doesn't it really point to a bunch of people, wanting so hard to believe, STARING AT THE SUN too long and burning their retinas - thereby causing all sorts of colors and weirdness to ensue within their vision? The accounts sure fit that description, in my opinion.
Besides, what about all of the following weirdness about "Consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary"? Supposedly done by church officials on a few occasions after the prophecy was made known - but, of course, since "world peace" didn't ensue, some officials had to retract and say it wasn't done according to the prophecies. Obviously.
I ask you - if God wants us to believe, then why would he even perform half-assed "miracles" that leave everyone wondering if there is some other explanation? Why exclude certain people who were RIGHT THERE from witnessing the events in the same way? Why react to the (likely sincere) attempt at the "concecration of Russia" with anything less than the promised/prophesied result of world peace, etc.? It seems more like some elaborate game to me. Cosmic Hide and Seek, or a badly formed rehash of "Clue". Except that the stakes are told to be ETERNAL SUFFERING for the losers. What if I just don't want to play?
I am pressed for time but would like to respond. This large body of text below I have saved from another exchange I had with someone on the internet sometime ago. It is mostly testimonies of those present at the Fatima event, or in some cases a number of miles away. Suffice it to say, the documentation on this event is immeasurable. The eye witness testimonies are on film besides in print. Just because a small percentage of the 70,000 present saw nothing means nothing. God can do as he pleases. I can tell you the communist journalist there to mock it from 'O Seculo' Lisbon newspaper saw it. He reluctantly reported the facts in the paper two days later. I have the english translation of that article but did not include it here. The facts are truly inexplicable. There is no doubt in my mind. ---- At the end of this text below this poster was referencing the infamous Joe Nickell from some skeptic site. That is why I bring that up. So read what you would like and do as you please with it. I am out of town. I would like to answer the questions in your last paragraph later. Thanks.
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(a previous exchange)
Would the words of a scientist eye witness matter to you? How about the newspaper report from an atheist communist journalist? Below is a sample. There are hundreds of eye witness testimonies, maybe thousands all documented. IMO, Fatima is thee miracle that convicts the skeptic. God has made Himself known to the world through the vision given to three shepherd children and then to the 70,000 who demanded it be shown to them as well.
Essentials: The Facts: The Miracle of the Sun
An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal
"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time
"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.
"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.
"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.
"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.
"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."
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And the testimonies actually number in the hundreds or thousands, many on film. Here again, a sample.
HEAVEN'S PROGRAM FOR SALVATION: Testimonies to Fatima's Miracle of the Sun
Testimonies to Fatima's Miracle of the Sun
Cited below are many witness accounts from that momentous day; elsewhere on this website are
photos,
newspaper accounts and
personal memoirs.
WRITTEN DEPOSITION by Portuguese aristocrat Baron of Alvaiazere, to Church investigators:
“. . . An indescribable impression overtook me. I only know that I cried out
: I believe
! I believe
! And tears ran from my eyes. I was amazed, in ecstasy before the demonstration of Divine power . . . converted in that moment.”
Testimony of a Dr. Formigao, Professor at Santarem seminary
“As if like a bolt from the blue, the clouds were wrenched apart, and the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendour. It began to revolve vertiginously on its axis, like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking on all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-coloured flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect. This sublime and incomparable spectacle, which was repeated three distinct times, lasted for about ten minutes.
“The immense multitude, overcome by the evidence of such a tremendous prodigy, threw themselves on their knees. The Creed, the Hail Mary, acts of contrition, burst from all lips, and tears, tears of thanksgiving and repentance sprang from all eyes.”
Report of John Carreira, a boy at the time of the miracle, who eventually became a sacristan at the Fátima shrine, serving for 50 years.
On 13 October 1917, onlookers in the crowd pressed him against the three visionary children, so that “my knees jammed between Lucia's and Francisco's feet,” he later wrote. “…I saw the sun spinning round and it seemed about to come down on us. It revolved like a bicycle wheel. Afterwards, it returned to its place . . . I wasn't afraid, but I heard people cry out: 'Oh, we are going to die! We are going to die!'”
Lawyer Carlos Mendes declared:
“I saw the sun as if it were a ball of fire, begin to move in the clouds
. It had been raining all morning and the sky was full of clouds, but the rain had stopped. It lasted for several seconds, crushingly pressing down on us. Wan faces, standing here, from every side great ejaculations, acts of contrition, of the love of God. An indescribable moment! We feel it. We remain dominated by it. But it is not possible to describe it.”
Antonio de Oliveiro, farmer, said:
“I looked at the sun and saw it spinning like a disc, rolling on itself. I saw people changing colour. They were stained with the colours of the rainbow. The sun seemed to fall down from the sky… The people said that the world was going to end . . . They were afraid and screaming.”
Maria dos Prazeres, widow:
“I saw the sun turn upon itself; it seemed to fall from the sky The people around me were crying that the world was going to end.”
Dominic Reis (in TV interview in the U.S. in l960)
“The sun started to roll from one place to another and changed to blue, yellow -- all colours. Then we see the sun coming towards the children. Everyone was crying out. Some started to confess their sins because there was no priest around there . . . My mother grabbed me to her and started to cry, saying: 'It is the end of the world!' And then we see the sun come right into the trees.”
Maria Candida da Silva
“Suddenly the rain stopped and a great splendour appeared and the children cried: 'Look at the sun!' I saw the sun coming down, feeling that it was falling to the ground. At that moment, I collapsed.”
Rev. Joao Menitra
“I looked and saw that the people were in various colours -- yellow, white, blue. At the same time, I beheld the sun spinning at great speed and very near me. I at once thought: I am going to die.”.
Joaquim Lourenco, a schoolboy, was in the village of Alburitel, a few miles from Fátima.. He later became canon lawyer of the diocese of Leiria.
“… I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes.
“Looking like a ball of snow, revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zigzag, menacing the earth.
“Terrified, I ran and hid myself among the people, who were weeping and expecting the end of the world at any moment. It was a crowd which had gathered outside our local village school, and we had all left classes and run into the streets because of the cries and surprised shouts of men and women who were in the street in front of the school when the miracle began.
“There was an unbeliever there who had spent the morning mocking the 'simpletons' who had gone off to Fátima just to see an ordinary girl. He now seemed paralyzed, his eyes fixed on the sun. He began to tremble from head to foot, and lifting up his arms, fell on his knees in the mud, crying out to God.
“But meanwhile the people continued to cry out and to weep, asking God to pardon their sins. We all ran to the two chapels in the village, which were soon filled to overflowing. During those long moments of the solar prodigy, objects around us turned all colours of the rainbow.
Abano Barros (a building contractor, who later became a U.S. citizen) witnessed the apparition from the village of Minde, eight miles away…
“I was watching sheep, as was my daily task, and suddenly, there in the direction of Fátima, I saw the sun fall from the sky. I thought it was the end of the world.”
Poet Alfonso Lopes Viera saw the miracle from a distance of 30 miles at the ocean-side town of San Pedro der Muel.
The miracle was also seen in Pombal, 32 miles north of Fátima.
The total land-area of visibility, based on witness interviews, was approximately 32 by 20 miles.
No records of the solar phenomena were recorded by any of the world's observatories
Summation by another Scientist at the time who studied the event in detail...
Fr. Pio Sciatizzi, professor of algebra and trigonometry at the Gregorian University, Rome, author of
Fátima in the Light of Faith and Science in the 1940s wrote this: “Of the historic reality of this event there can be no doubt whatsoever. That it was outside and against known laws can be proved by certain simple scientific considerations… Given the indubitable reference to God and the general context of the event, it seems that we must attribute to Him alone the most obvious and colossal miracle of history.”
NOTE: The above reports and others were published in 1961 in
Meet the Witnesses, by John Haffert, International Lay Delegate of the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fátima. (A.M.I. Press, Washington, N.J., U.S.A.).
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So that is what you believe instead? Lovely. Here is what you believe based on the link you submitted:
" Nickell suggested that the crowd saw a sundog, a patch of light that sometimes appears beside the sun. Sundogs are stationary, however, so that doesn't explain why people thought they saw the sun moving. So perhaps the "sun dance" appeared in the minds and perceptions of those pilgrims present — not in the skies above them."
Ok, let us consider your belief in light of some facts.
Fact: On July 13, 1917 a large crowd heard the three shepherd children say that the Virgin Mary told them she would perform a miracle on October 13th for all present to see so they would know these messages are coming from God.
Fact: Somewhere close to 70,000 people arrived in the torrents of rain and mud to the very location on that very day as predicted which included journalists from the largest Lisbon newspaper “O Seculo” which is anti-Catholic and marxist. Also in the gathering are agnostics and men of science and untold numbers of unbelievers.
Fact: It is only at the hour the three shepherd children arrive that the steady rain stops and moments later the gray skies part. A very lucky coincidence for your sundog theory wouldn’t you say?
Fact: The vast majority of the 70,000 all claim to see something
very similar, not very different! How strange if this were some psychological trick or mass hallucination these “imagined” events would coincide so closely with so many thousands. I mean, they all claimed the sun danced. They all claimed it gave off multi-colored hues that covered the entire landscape, the skies, their faces and clothes. They all claimed it turned blood red, very large and charged the earth. Even those who saw nothing witnessed the entire crowd go into a panic all at once. How in the world if this were imagined, could they all have imagined the very same thing of the sun charging the earth at the very same time?
Fact: There are written testimonies and filmed testimonies of so many witnesses the unbeliever most likely does not want to investigate. The unbeliever most assuredly does not want to know of the medical doctor and science professors who were not believers who gave clear and cogent testimonies of the facts, the very facts the rest of the crowd only imagined. The unbeliever cannot explain with any reasonableness why a marxist newspaper reported the events as a miracle which they witnessed for themselves when in fact they were their to mock it and cause the faithful to doubt their faith.
Fact: The testimonies speak of everyone present being soaked to the bone because of the hours of rain, and yet, after the 10 minute solar phenomenon, they reported the ground was dry and their clothes were dry. Imagined?
Fact: This solar phenomenon was also seen and reported on by numerous witnesses who did not go to Fatima that day but were anywhere from 10 – 20 miles away. Seen because they could not help but notice, not because they were sitting in their lawn chairs staring in that direction waiting for a fireworks show. The skeptic really shows his desperation when their only defense is to say “eye witnesses can never be trusted” or words to that effect.
Fact: The odds of three young children predicting a miracle 90 days in advance to the exact day they claimed! and for it to be witnessed or testified to by 50,000 or more is beyond calculation. The odds some “sundog” appeared on that exact day and moment and fooled 50,000 or more to report seeing the same imagined phenomenon are not even worth discussing.
“When man stops believing in God he then does not believe in nothing… he will believe in anything.” (G.K. Chesterton)
