Without a creator God, do we need morality?

[Random]

But that's still using "God," isn't it?

By taking an ideal, though, be it an Eden or a Utopia, we can work towards that ideal without a "God." The ideal becomes the placebo. But are we creating and recreating, or are we simply being?

You are right that we flatter ourselves to think we "create" everything, even (or perhaps especially) our own realities. We are born into this world with everything given, and we work with what we've got to effect change: but still, we can only reform and reshape what is already there nothing comes out of nothing.

Or does it? If one believed in GOD with allthe heart and mind, then nothing is impossible. Pehaps we have to believe this to have morality of any kind, since we must acknowlege a realm beyond and imperceptible to our mortal intellects. It would be foolish not to.

To answer, GC, we recreate by virtue of our beingness. The ancients probably understood this better than most do today: perfection, the ideal, the utopia in our souls, is not realized by the Do-er, the one who simply egoically enjoys the merry-go-round of free action, but rather in the moral man who knows how to live his life and express himself holistically in the continuity of existence bequethed to us.

I have a saying:

The Moral of the Story is that the Story is Moral​

Meaning it is a human story, told by and about what we liberally refer to as GOD, and that nothing is really wrong with us so long as the fate or destiny ordained for us is made true and real in our lives.

 

[doppelganger]

You are right that we flatter ourselves to think we "create" everything, even (or perhaps especially) our own realities. We are born into this world with everything given, and we work with what we've got to effect change: but still, we can only reform and reshape what is already there nothing comes out of nothing.

What is nothing if not everything?

Meaning it is a human story, told by and about what we liberally refer to as GOD, and that nothing is really wrong with us so long as the fate or destiny ordained for us is made true and real in our lives.

Or it is "my" story, told about what I liberally call my "being," and nothing is wrong with me. Period.

 

[Random]

What is nothing if not everything?

Just so, yes.

Or it is "my" story, told about what I liberally call my "being," and nothing is wrong with me. Period.

Right again. End the seperation between Self and Other and GOD's story becomes your own.

 

[Kungfuzed]

[FONT=&quot]In my opinion, which i admit is speculative, is that without God or any topical force that can dictate correctness, humanity is left alone to cope with understanding the universe around it. Since humanity is limited in knowledge and awareness, his concept of morality is an ideal and only exists conceptually and if that is truly the case, does that not imply relativism? Would not morality in an atheist imply a reaction to theism and the cultural saturation that theism has affected?[/FONT]

We don't have to have morality. We don' t have to have anything. We could kill and steal and rape all we want and the earth will keep on spinning. However, if we want to live in peace and have some level of happiness, we have to set rules and live by them. This is true weather God exists or not.

 

[harleydavidson]

to all ,,I've seen some fuzzey thinking in my life but never with such blown up adjectives to make it so flowerey! Do we need god to have morality ..no,because I can state moral rules which are pretty universal without god. Is all morality just universal mores and customs of society..no,,some rules are accepted by a large percentage of the great unwashed. What are we talkinf about? Morality is how man in society ought to act. Some actions are not moral i.e. eating soup. Some are moral usually those that have interaction twixt people. General rules,,do good and avoid evil..do unto others as you wld etc.,the greatest good fot the greatest number,what wld result if everyone did this,, etc, when you look to answer questions like these ,,look to the general not to the specific. Inky had a lot of it basically right,,the only thing is ,we can test them,the test is does society profit or lose if the rule is held or violated.....harley dav.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Morality is a requirement of the society. If society perishes, we also perish.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Morality is the best law-system so far, so...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If you don't believe in God, then there is no separation between moral codes thought up by humans, and ones thought up by God. To be more specific: if there is no God, then all morals--including ones found in religious systems--come from the minds of men.

I agree.

gods are not needed in order to have a moral code.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I choose to follow Random because Random has more frubals. As first worshiping member of the church of Random I hereby order that all heretical heathen devil Nihilo worshipers be converted or killed without quarter or mercy. So it is written.

I'm sorry I can not get behind that.......

I would like to start my own following......I would like to start my own frubal cult. But I can't because it is against the forum rules to proselytizes......

 

[Primordial]

If a religion has to keep you in order i worry about you. if you say that if there is no creator god, then why have morals, i worry about you. i dont believe in a god but i have morals. be good to just be good, not for a being you dont even know exists. if you have to believe in a higher being to be good, then i might ask how much good is really in you?

 

[dhamma_sena]

if you believe in the cosmic law of Karma and reincarnation , there's ofcourse some sort of the need for the moralities . what you put out there , some day , you will get it back again ... This cosmic law of Karma and reincarnation , aren't God's creation . It's simply the cosmic law , just like gravity , etc

 

[TheMontanankid.]

Well, we dont need morality to live, but the fact that we naturally have guilt and a "conscience" leads me to believe acting in certain ways has long-term evolutionary benefits..

So, go on from there..

 

[azmo]

If we want to live happily and long, yes, we need morality.
Otherwise we would just killing eachother, quicker than now.

 

[ZooGirl02]

Yes, we do still need morality. If we didn't have morality, the world would be in even more chaos than it currently is.

 

[Father Heathen]

Humans are social animals who normally possess an innate empathy towards others of their kind. So of course rules and standards for conduct would naturally arise within social groups.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

morality works mostly as a numbers game. things that are morally wrong are typically things that, if allowed for every member of a group, would undermine an important social structure. if there were no consequences for lying, then it would be impossible to believe what anyone says and communication would be worthless. if there were no consequences for stealing, property would be a worthless concept. if there were no consequences for adultery, relationships would be worthless... blah blah bah. probably the original moral law was about killing, because you need a population to have a society. these aren't necessarily punishments, but learned emotional consequences or social consequences in most cases. religion arose later on after the moral machine had been chugging along for generations and codified many of the more complex moral standards (and of course made up a bunch of arbitrary ones that in no way helped the longevity of society). religion, gods, dogma, or hell had nothing to do with the original state of morality in humans - it simply came and tried to do it better, to a ridiculously ineffective end.

To be more specific: if there is no God, then all morals--including ones found in religious systems--come from the minds of men.

i understand that you might be using the term "men" poetically, and in that case i apologize in advance for missing your point. but morality is certainly not a human concept, and even OUR morality was passed down by our swimming/climbing ancestors.

if you believe in the cosmic law of Karma and reincarnation , there's ofcourse some sort of the need for the moralities . what you put out there , some day , you will get it back again ... This cosmic law of Karma and reincarnation , aren't God's creation . It's simply the cosmic law , just like gravity , etc

i get really nervous when people say that karma and reincarnation are "laws" ("just like gravity") because not only does it totally disrespect the term "law" but it makes something that's not scientific at all sound scientific. there are no means whatsoever to test the "cosmic law of karma" in controlled experiment, so it could never be tested enough or peer reviewed enough to be considered a law.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Humans are social animals who normally possess an innate empathy towards others of their kind. So of course rules and standards for conduct would naturally arise within social groups.

Agreed...... :yes:

 

[conrad beckman]

Of course. We are no different than any domesticated animal in that respect. Given an environment which doesn't teach us differently, most individuals will grow up to be contributing members to man's continuing existence.

 

[conrad beckman]

You sound more like a Deist that believes that God takes an active role in our lives.I think you should look at the religion of our Founding Fathers, as they seemed to think as you.

I judge by how you write that you are a thinking person.

If someone does not beleive in any higher being, why have any morals? Why not kill? Why not drink? Why not sleep with everyone? Why not steal? Why not burn down our neighbor's house? Why not?

For most people they just wouldn't do some of these things. Most men would not becuase of the lack of belef in God, rape a child. Most women will not because of a lack faith, kill everyone they see.

We have a set moral code within ourselves. Some things we just will not do, our spirits bare witness with ourselves. And our spirit, our conscience will tell us when we do wrong or right, becuase our spirit is from God, who has is the basis for right and wrong. However we can ignore God, we can pretend he doesn't exist and totally serve our own selves. Or we can hold on to some form of God, but deny his exisistance.

One may be agnostic but just open your mind to the possibilities. Which of the following happened first?

1) The creation of the Big Bang substances?

2) Or the explosion of the Big Bang?

 

[LuisDantas]

[FONT=&quot]In my opinion, which i admit is speculative, is that without God or any topical force that can dictate correctness, humanity is left alone to cope with understanding the universe around it. Since humanity is limited in knowledge and awareness, his concept of morality is an ideal and only exists conceptually and if that is truly the case, does that not imply relativism? Would not morality in an atheist imply a reaction to theism and the cultural saturation that theism has affected?[/FONT]

Morality is a social necessity. It does not even remotely require God. Better cases can be made that either

1) God was instead molded by the need of morality or

2) Belief in God is a hindrance to morality at least part of time (because it separates the need for moral values from the agent)

Nor is morality particularly seeded on absolutes. We all live in a not-so-absolute world anyway. Morality is not so peculiar that it needs transcendence from circunstances.