Without God(s), what is the point?!

[George-ananda]

I didn't suggest that belief in Oneness renders life pointless. More that it would lead to more existential questions about that point.
Who wants us to join the Oneness?
Why do we exist in an unevolved state?
Is life's sole purpose to evolve us?
If so, what is the reason this is not clear to us?

Meh...I could put a million things down, but there seems to be an endless sea if existential considerations on your path. None of which makes it right or wrong, incidentally. Those are quite different questions, to my mind.

Well, let me try to explain Advaita (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) drawing on the wisdom of many masters I respect. I do hold the belief that there are those that have experienced consciousness levels deeper than the surface chatter-mind.

The only thing that exists is One infinite consciousness that has no needs and has a creative aspect. The Oneness creates a cosmic thought-form/play/drama in which in Act I separates Himself from Himself (rays of consciousness identify with finite forms) and in Act II returns Himself to Himself (a blissful ending for all).

Why? Why do humans create art/plays with no practical purpose = TO EXPERIENCE.

Well, that's a start at explaining meaning.

Something I'm going to assume almost no one is actually achieving?

If we are growing in concern for others, love and consideration of all then we are indeed achieving this evolution towards Oneness.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not according to what I have learned.

You are welcome. Both of us are aware of our differences.

The only thing that exists is One infinite consciousness ..

Any evidence for that one infinite consciousness? From where it arise? Special pleading.

 

[KWED]

If suffering doesn't exist, relief doesn't exist either. Relief is the positive side of suffering.

Why would it matter that "relief from suffering" does not exist?
It is merely the reaction to suffering ending. Without suffering in the first place, the concept of relief from it is meaningless.

If you are eating a cake, you don't need someone to take it away from you in order to enjoy it.
You don't need to hate someone else in order to love your child.
The argument that without suffering, we cannot experience pleasure is incoherent.

 

[KWED]

Some posters say that they fear death. My question is why do they fear death? It is inevitable, every one will die in his / her own time. It may come the very next moment (while I am typing) or it may give me 10 more years of life. Be prepared for death if you are a family person. Carry on with life till chance permits. After death, it is all over. There is no 'you' or 'your worries'.

I do not fear death. In fact, I envisage a time when I will welcome it.
However, I do fear the manner in which I will die (probably a high-speed tangle of bones and machinery!).

 

[KWED]

Not according to what I have learned.

You mean "Not according to what I hope for".
"Learning" implies some kind of knowledge-based process.

 

[KWED]

Well, let me try to explain Advaita (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) drawing on the wisdom of many masters I respect. I do hold the belief that there are those that have experienced consciousness levels deeper than the surface chatter-mind.

The only thing that exists is One infinite consciousness that has no needs and has a creative aspect. The Oneness creates a cosmic thought-form/play/drama in which in Act I separates Himself from Himself (rays of consciousness identify with finite forms) and in Act II returns Himself to Himself (a blissful ending for all).

Why? Why do humans create art/plays with no practical purpose = TO EXPERIENCE.

Well, that's a start at explaining meaning.
If we are growing in concern for others, love and consideration of all then we are indeed achieving this evolution towards Oneness.

All you are doing here is presenting spiritual beliefs, opinions. There is no evidence or rational argument to support your position, any more than any other religion or belief. It is irrelevant how deeply and sincerely people believe something if it is not true.

 

[blü 2]

Atheists, do you simply chase happiness and contentment with your days? Is that all there is without God?

Humans have a life-plan built into their bodies ─ grow up learning the ways of your world; hit adolescence and get ready for breeding; raise your kids in turn; and as the old joke has it, the bond between grandchildren and grandparents is that they have a common enemy.

Of course, nobody HAS to do that. And certainly nobody has to do only that. But a lot of the ways humans think or their hormones think for them are along those lines.

When I was a Christian , I served a higher power and had a purpose. My actions and thoughts affected the metaphysical world. My purpose was to serve Jesus Christ and help reclaim the world for Him. Even after letting go of Christianity, still retaining some belief in God and karma, I served a higher purpose. The reclamation of this world for the benevolent yet not omnipotent God.

We used to do a bit of community work, get things organized for sports facilities, school programs, conservation and tree planting and other good stuff, and many people respond when given a lead ─ well, those did, anyway. I even got into politics at one stage.

So believe me, there's plenty out there to do, both for yourself, and if you wish your community, or team, or cause, or whatever.

If belief in a god helps, who can argue? If you don't need it, who can argue?

 

[Aupmanyav]

However, I do fear the manner in which I will die (probably a high-speed tangle of bones and machinery!).

I don't fear that too. "Que Sera Sera". Are you a Biker? Go slow (But alas, Bikers do not go slow). The dignity of a Biker is hurt if he/she does slow. I do not relish my son or grandsons going even on a bicycle. It is dangerous in India. I won't let my son buy a BMW or Merc, if he ever so desires.

"214 road crashes occur every day in India. Two wheelers account for 25% of total road crash deaths. .. 377 people die every day, equivalent to a jumbo jet crashing every day." - Quora

 

[KWED]

I don't fear that too. "Que Sera Sera".

I just want it to be quick and painless, not long and drawn out.
I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father, not screaming and kicking like his passengers.

Are you a Biker? Go slow (But alas, Bikers do not go slow). I do not relish my son or grandsons going even on a bicycle. It is dangerous in India. I won't let my son buy a BMW or Merc, if he ever so desires.

"214 road crashes occur every day in India. Two wheelers account for 25% of total road crash deaths. .. 377 people die every day, equivalent to a jumbo jet crashing every day." - Quora

I do a bit of club racing so I'm often right on the limit (at least on track there are no trees or walls to hit. The biggest fear is coming off and another bike, or your own, hitting you). I'm more cautious on the roads, plus UK roads and drivers are relatively safe.

 

[sayak83]

I suppose my personal issue is that that's all there is to life without a god. I have no grand purpose and heaven on earth won't happen. All there is is to find joy in simple things. Maybe that's not enough for me. I've been fixated on serving a grand purpose and higher power for so long, and now I am finding out all there is is to be happy. Is being happy enough?

Try to attend to and value the richness of conscious experience as you live it. Then try to increase the quality of that lived conscious experience. That is where you will find true intrinsic value.

 

[sayak83]

It's real grand! You are to move humanity closer to the end of all human suffering, with God's help of course. At least that's what I perceived.
Atheists don't have a plan to eradicate human suffering.

You were also moving significant parts of humanity closer to eternal suffering in Hell (or complete annihilation after end time tribulations) at that time. How did that factor in in your assessment of value?
I am not an atheist, but reducing suffering for yourself and actual living humans around you through concrete actions still seems an intrinsically worthy goal.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my father, not screaming and kicking like his passengers.

My father died while having his bath. His daughters-in-law had prepared tea for him, but probability / chance did not allow him to enjoy that. We all will go in our own style. Que Sera Sera.
Sanskit: Tatah kim? Punjabi: Te fer ki? English: So what?

 

[George-ananda]

All you are doing here is presenting spiritual beliefs, opinions. There is no evidence or rational argument to support your position, any more than any other religion or belief.

It is more than beliefs/opinons but the (claimed) direct experiences of many masters in deeper levels of consciousness. If you require physical proof of experiences in claimed deeper states of consciousness, then I am afraid that is not possible.

Actually a Hindu master tells us not to take his word for it but to explore for ourselves and discover the truth for ourselves. As reaching those levels of Self-Realized consciousness is no easy feat, the novice can only take what is said as a hypothesis.

It is irrelevant how deeply and sincerely people believe something if it is not true.

I agree with that statement, But, in this case, you and I don't know if it is true or not true.

In the meantime, from my study of the paranormal and spiritual this is really the philosophy that makes the most reasoned sense of reality (and that includes the materialist philosophies).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So there would be relief.

Reminds me of a joke my Dad liked to tell:

"Why are you hitting your head against the wall?"

"Because it feels so good when I stop."

 

[KWED]

It is more than beliefs/opinons but the (claimed) direct experiences of many masters in deeper levels of consciousness. If you require physical proof of experiences in claimed deeper states of consciousness, then I am afraid that is not possible.

So basically, you just accept what people tell you (as long as you agree with it), and assume that their dreams were real.
Fair enough.

Actually a Hindu master tells us not to take his word for it but to explore for ourselves and discover the truth for ourselves.

So you don't accept the claimed experiences of these "masters" then"

As reaching those levels of Self-Realized consciousness is no easy feat, the novice can only take what is said as a hypothesis.I agree with that statement, But, in this case, you and I don't know if it is true or not true.

So now we are back to accepting people's claims without evidence, even though you admit that it may not be true.

In the meantime, from my study of the paranormal and spiritual this is really the philosophy that makes the most reasoned sense of reality (and that includes the materialist philosophies).

In what way does the paranormal explain the physical world better than naturalist explanations?

 

[dybmh]

Why would it matter that "relief from suffering" does not exist?
It is merely the reaction to suffering ending. Without suffering in the first place, the concept of relief from it is meaningless

Exactly. Without suffering the concept of relief is meaningless. That's a negative consequence. It answers the question, why does suffering exist in the first place. The answer is, so that relief exists.

If you are eating a cake, you don't need someone to take it away from you in order to enjoy it.
You don't need to hate someone else in order to love your child.
The argument that without suffering, we cannot experience pleasure is incoherent.

well now you're changing the subject. We're not talking about love, hate, pleasure or enjoyment. We're talking about suffering and relief.

 

[KWED]

Exactly. Without suffering the concept of relief is meaningless. That's a negative consequence. It answers the question, why does suffering exist in the first place. The answer is, so that relief exists.

By why does "relief" need to exist if it is merely when suffering stops?
It's like saying that if infection didn't exist, there would be no need for antibiotics. Not needing antibiotics isn't a "negative consequence", unless there is infection that needs curing.
So not getting relief from suffering isn't a negative consequence if there is no suffering that needs to be relived.

well now you're changing the subject. We're not talking about love, hate, pleasure or enjoyment. We're talking about suffering and relief.

Google "analogy".

 

[dybmh]

By why does "relief" need to exist if it is merely when suffering stops?

Without relief, the world would be fundementally different. I think it would be worse. It would be like hunger and saticfaction didn't exist. Thirst and refreshment, etc..

Google "analogy".

The analogy you were using doesn't fit.

 

[YoursTrue]

Reminds me of a joke my Dad liked to tell:

"Why are you hitting your head against the wall?"

"Because it feels so good when I stop."

When I was reading Freud, (Sigmund), he wrote about suffering and the relief from it. He figured if there were no suffering, we wouldn't know relief, or peace. Even before I studied the Bible and realized certain things, I thought "that's nuts" that Freud would say such a (stupid) thing. But I didn't give it much overthought until now as far as the ridiculous concept of applauding happiness as if it was a "relief" from suffering. (stupid)

 

[YoursTrue]

Without relief, the world would be fundementally different. I think it would be worse. It would be like hunger and saticfaction didn't exist. Thirst and refreshment, etc..

The analogy you were using doesn't fit.

Happiness, some say, doesn't last very long. There are things we can do that possibly make us feel better -- but the sensation of true happiness is quite different than simple "relief" from unhappiness. And it doesn't last very long. Psalm 90:10 is aptly descriptive: "The span of our life is 70 years, Or 80 if one is especially strong.
But they are filled with trouble and sorrow; They quickly pass by..."
So the psalmist realized that our lives are certainly not filled with joy and happiness. Even looking at saddening things, such as starvation and warfare, gun shootings, murders, can make us unhappy.