Without God(s), what is the point?!

[YoursTrue]

That applies equally to the religious.

Well, that just shows that you are pretty selfish and uncaring at heart.

That's because you don't value others at all. You only do it because god tells you to.

We are all "just animals". The only thing that makes us think we are different from other animals is our ability to think that we are different. It is really just arrogance and pride. Kinda how religionists think they are better than atheists.

There's differentiation in caring for people, also how we respond. Let me give you this illustration: if I know that someone is a drug addict and asks me for a handout (money), should I give it to him? There are decisions to be made by those in a position to give.

 

[YoursTrue]

So you are just meat robots being controlled by an external force? Don't see how that is any better.

If you accept that without the control of religion you would be selfish, then you are selfish.

It also depends on how the religion offers advice on how or what to give to those in need, doesn't it?

 

[KWED]

Or maybe it's accurate because of seeing that even the best of us still have faults. It's great that you want to help others. In my world that just means God gives everyone some form of moral compass, and you haven't totally suppressed it because of sin.

If everyone has a moral compass, even if they are atheists, then why is belief in god needed for a moral compass?

And of course we don't know if we would descend into barbarians if we were not restrained by society, because we have never had society completely collapse on us.

What history shows us is that some people would descend into barbarism while others would show compassion and self-sacrifice.

If humans were inherently good there would be no crime, no wars and on and on. It's not hard to see we aren't inherently good.

The tiny proportion of people who commit genuinely "evil" crime (as opposed to things like drug possession, theft through destitution, etc), shows that people are generally good.
I don't know about you and your social circle, but with mine we are nice/help each other and others far more than we abuse/take advantage each other and others. In fact, I'd say it is a ratio of like 1000:1, probably more.
Maybe your lot are different. Perhaps when you go to a party the only thing that stops you stealing a wallet is god watching you?

 

[KWED]

If you don't have the same ethics in a true survival situation... you never really had them.

Nonsense. Ethics are generally conditional on circumstance.
My ethical position on killing is conditional on me not having to kill someone in order to protect myself/family from death.

If your daughter suffered an ectopic pregnancy and would die a slow, agonising death unless the embryo is removed - what would your position be?

 

[KWED]

I realize that. On the other hand, if I thought any other religion were true, I'd feel free to join them in their form of worship. (But I don't.) And I go back to the apostle Paul as a good example of one who was confronted by Jesus in a vision, who changed his life course and was occasionally thought of as crazy. Paul (formerly Saul) preached to Greeks and Jews and was often persecuted.

So basically you acknowledge that many people's religious experiences (that they believe to be genuine) are just delusion, but insist yours are genuine.
Seems reasonable.

 

[KWED]

There is much flooding going on in the United States and worldwide. Governmental agencies are telling people to have emergency plans in place. That aside from drunk drivers who have accidents and hurt and kill people. That aside from unbridled anger with people killing others. So if I'm driving down a street and the sign says "Detour..." I would follow the signs, hopefully.

No idea what point you are trying to make there.

 

[YoursTrue]

So basically you acknowledge that many people's religious experiences (that they believe to be genuine) are just delusion, but insist yours are genuine.
Seems reasonable.

Basically what I am saying is that I'm certainly not insisting you believe me. And I don't have to believe others either about their experiences.

 

[KWED]

There's differentiation in caring for people, also how we respond. Let me give you this illustration: if I know that someone is a drug addict and asks me for a handout (money), should I give it to him? There are decisions to be made by those in a position to give.

Again, not sure what your point is.
However, the standard practice with destitute addicts is to give them food, clothes, etc rather than money. You don't refuse to help an addict because they are an addict. They need help because they are an addict.

 

[YoursTrue]

No idea what point you are trying to make there.

ok...let me try again with a different illustration. I see it's a little hard for you to get the point. So -- Hopefully a person won't steal. But if they do, should punishment be given?

 

[KWED]

It also depends on how the religion offers advice on how or what to give to those in need, doesn't it?

No. You are still only doing it because your religion tells you.

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, not sure what your point is.
However, the standard practice with destitute addicts is to give them food, clothes, etc rather than money. You don't refuse to help an addict because they are an addict. They need help because they are an addict.

So if you know a person is an addict and they ask you for money, would you give it to them?

 

[KWED]

Basically what I am saying is that I'm certainly not insisting you believe me. And I don't have to believe others either about their experiences.

But you are sure that your experiences are genuine, while those of others are mere delusion.

 

[YoursTrue]

No. You are still only doing it because your religion tells you.

Again -- is it that you don't make decisions on how and what types of actions you offer for the good? If someone you know steals a car, would you help them fix it up?

 

[KWED]

ok...let me try again with a different illustration. I see it's a little hard for you to get the point. So -- Hopefully a person won't steal. But if they do, should punishment be given?

Yes, commensurate with the circumstances of the offence committed.
What do you think?

(Still no idea how that relates to your original post though)

 

[KWED]

So if you know a person is an addict and they ask you for money, would you give it to them?

It depends on the circumstances. If they asked me to pay a £100 overdue bill, I would (depending on who it was and my financial circumstances). If they asked me for £100 in cash, I would not.
What is your position?

(Still don't see where this is going. Just make your point!)

 

[KWED]

Again -- is it that you don't make decisions on how and what types of actions you offer for the good? If someone you know steals a car, would you help them fix it up?

No. Because they stole it and theft is wrong. I would not need to consult anyone else before making that decision. And I wouldn't expect a reward for doing it, nor would I not do it through fear of punishment.

We both make value judgements on who receives our help - but whoever the recipient and whatever the help, I do not have any element of fear of punishment or desire for reward in my actions. You do.
That is all.

 

[YoursTrue]

But you are sure that your experiences are genuine, while those of others are mere delusion.

No, I'm not saying that. So let me reiterate. I'm saying that I believe my experiences are genuine in that I attribute these certain events to God answering me in a way that's more than coincidence. I don't have a signed, sealed document mailed from heaven with a notary's stamp on it. But they're mine. I don't ask others to accept them as true coming from me. I only know what I experienced. Nothing observable as a vision but circumstances. Others may relate experiences to me and while they were not my experience, I can understand it and feel it's their experience within the realm of my belief. Then there are other experiences that people may have had they may relate but I do not think they came from God. Yes, it is my decision to make as to what I currently believe. Kind of like science. ?

 

[YoursTrue]

It depends on the circumstances. If they asked me to pay a £100 overdue bill, I would (depending on who it was and my financial circumstances). If they asked me for £100 in cash, I would not.
What is your position?

(Still don't see where this is going. Just make your point!)

I am making my point. We all make decisions in life, religious or not, as to what's good. There are atheists and purported religious people who do not do good to others, right? There are people teaching their children how to lie and steal yet go to houses of religious worship. They may even help someone in need. So at a certain point, you figure it out.

 

[YoursTrue]

No. Because they stole it and theft is wrong. I would not need to consult anyone else before making that decision. And I wouldn't expect a reward for doing it, nor would I not do it through fear of punishment.

We both make value judgements on who receives our help - but whoever the recipient and whatever the help, I do not have any element of fear of punishment or desire for reward in my actions. You do.
That is all.

Again -- regarding reward or punishment, there are some things people may think are good, doing good for others, that may not be so good. There was a circumstance where a father taught his children how to steal. They were all put in jail. Yet the children mentioned also the fun they had with their father outside of the stealing activities. Your sense of morality may not be the same shared by others, atheists or not.

 

[YoursTrue]

It depends on the circumstances. If they asked me to pay a £100 overdue bill, I would (depending on who it was and my financial circumstances). If they asked me for £100 in cash, I would not.
What is your position?

(Still don't see where this is going. Just make your point!)

Sometimes learning a hard lesson by hitting rock bottom is the beginning of getting up. So again -- there are levels in everyone no matter who they are in doing good to one's neighbor. Now the question -- are we all neighbors?