Woman shot and killed for refusing to give man her phone number

[Kilgore Trout]

Pot, meet kettle. Shame on you for trying to dictate to me what the "right" kind of opinion I need to have. LOL

Exactly where did I do that?

Dang, this is fun. Got any more? I still think jello wrestling is even more fun, but whatever floats your boat.

Making straw men is fun? Personally, I've never found it to be the case, but whatever floats your boat.

BTW, you never answered my question about feminist commentary where entitlement is considered a non-issue. If your claim of entitlement criticism is a mere subset of all of feminism, then I must be missing something. I'd like to see how you came to the conclusion.

Because your question is completely nonsensical in relation to anything I've said.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Here's a similar situation, but reversed:

Woman stabbed man after he refused to have sex with her then threatened to cry rape if he went to hospital for treatment | Daily Mail Online

My question is, in this case, do we attribute the woman's violence against the man for refusing sex to some type of "female entitlement?" If not, what do we suppose are the main causes for her actions? Why would we assume it would be any different in the story you posted?

The woman who stabbed the man in the story you posted was part of the focus for her drug and alcohol addiction, as well as attempting to cover up her actions once she realized the man was hurt. She began attempting to convince her 17-year-old friend to claim rape.

Was there any focus on the man's alcohol/drug problem or mental illness in the story I posted?

Also, are there rates of women-on-men violence stemmed from a sexual refusal that are equivalent to or marginally close to men-on-women violence stemming from a sexual refusal? It's been documented on the stark differential of women who suffer more brutal attacks from partner violence resulting in more severe injury or death more often.

Those differentials invite questions as to why that is the case.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Exactly where did I do that?

Suggesting to me that I'm dictating to you what the "right" opinion to have. Do I need to quote you for you to see it?

Making straw men is fun? Personally, I've never found it to be the case, but whatever floats your boat.

Playing with juvenile tactics. I like jello wrestling more. But internet play makes for passing time before I head off to work interesting, too.

Because your question is completely nonsensical in relation to anything I've said.

Did you not say that entitlement mentality is a "subset" of feminism that you reject? If so, my experience has been different than yours, in that I haven't seen any feminist commentary that suggests otherwise, or assumes that entitlement mentality is a non-issue. So I'm asking where you think that entitlement mentality is only a "subset" and nothing more.

It's rather like suggesting that feminism has a subset of rhetoric that is hyperbolic because it focuses on gender and sex equality. It's odd and warrants questioning for clarity. Feminism, in my experience, has brought up numerous times how problematic male entitlement is in sex, relationships, family dynamics, and economic structures. If you see it as only a subset, please point out to me where it is so. I'm wanting to understand where you're coming from. Saying my question is non-sensical doesn't help.

Oh, and I appreciate your attempts to paint my intentions as some power-hungry dictator wanting to decide what stays and what goes. I don't have moderator or administrative responsibilities anymore. I'm just a retiree who likes to hang around the forums drinking Sunstone's beer, flirting with the sexy people, and speaking my mind.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The woman who stabbed the man in the story you posted was part of the focus for her drug and alcohol addiction, as well as attempting to cover up her actions once she realized the man was hurt. She began attempting to convince her 17-year-old friend to claim rape.

That's all well and good, but she still stabbed him for refusing sex with her. Let's stay on topic.

Was there any focus on the man's alcohol/drug problem or mental illness in the story I posted?

Nope. However, are you of the opinion that a sober, mentally balanced individual will shoot multiple people for not getting a phone number?

Also, are there rates of women-on-men violence stemmed from a sexual refusal that are equivalent to or marginally close to men-on-women violence stemming from a sexual refusal? It's been documented on the stark differential of women who suffer more brutal attacks from partner violence resulting in more severe injury or death more often.

Indeed, this is a problem.

Those differentials invite questions as to why that is the case.

Inviting questions isn't the same as making an absolutist assumption in this case that the man's motives in your story were any different than the woman's motives in my story.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That's all well and good, but she still stabbed him for refusing sex with her. Let's stay on topic.

Hold up. This is my thread. It's my topic I brought up. You're more than welcome to create a new thread with comparisons and contrasts with your story if you wish. But for now, let's stay on the actual topic of a woman who was shot and killed for refusing to give her phone number to a man, and how this is partially symptomatic of an entitlement culture where women feel obligated to assuage men's demands for attention, time, and/or sex.

Nope. However, are you of the opinion that a sober, mentally balanced individual will shoot multiple people for not getting a phone number?

About as much as a society that will behead multiple people for witchcraft, adultery, or apostasy.

Indeed, this is a problem.

Inviting questions isn't the same as making an absolutist assumption in this case that the man's motives in your story were any different than the woman's motives in my story.

Recognizing there are differentials in sexual assault cases and partner violence while in the very next paragraph suggesting there is no difference in each of our stories is rather ironic. Don't you think?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Suggesting to me that I'm dictating to you what the "right" opinion to have. Do I need to quote you for you to see it?

You said: "Shame on you for trying to dictate to me what the "right" kind of opinion I need to have." Where did I do that? And yes, please quote where I dictated to you the right kind of opinion to have. Please make it relevant.

Playing with juvenile tactics. I like jello wrestling more. But internet play makes for passing time before I head off to work interesting, too.

Sorry, your non-sequiturs are failing as a deflection tactic. Again, where did I dictate to you the right kind of opinion to have?

Did you not say that entitlement mentality is a "subset" of feminism that you reject?

Again, please read what I actually write, instead of reacting to erroneous assumptions you make about what I say. Astute readers know that I don't make it my business to to other people's reading comprehension for them.

Oh, and I appreciate your attempts to paint my intentions as some power-hungry dictator wanting to decide what stays and what goes. I don't have moderator or administrative responsibilities anymore. I'm just a retiree who likes to hang around the forums drinking Sunstone's beer, flirting with the sexy people, and speaking my mind.

I don't think you're a power hungry dictator. I just think you have a propensity to dismiss any views that differ from your own on this topic, and tend to resort to rhetoric and mischaracterizations when another person doesn't conform to your opinions about feminism.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You said: "Shame on you for trying to dictate to me what the "right" kind of opinion I need to have." Where did I do that? And yes, please quote where I dictated to you the right kind of opinion to have. Please make it relevant.



Sorry, your non-sequiturs are failing as a deflection tactic. Again, where did I dictate to you the right kind of opinion to have?



Again, please read what I actually write, instead of reacting to erroneous assumptions you make about what I say. Astute readers know that I don't make it my business to to other people's reading comprehension for them.



I don't think you're a power hungry dictator. I just think you have a propensity to dismiss any views that differ from your own on this topic, and tend to resort to rhetoric and mischaracterizations when another person doesn't conform to your opinions about feminism.

Holy schmoly. The projecting here is at an all time high. You really don't pay attention to how I work with dissenting opinions on this and other feminist topics with other feminists (ask Dawny, for real). I think you're taking this conversation and conflating my counter-arguments against your first response into dismissing any views that differ from my own.

Let's make a deal here, KT. I'll quote you once you point me toward evidence of entitlement mentality being only a "subset" of feminism. I've asked for it repeatedly in this thread which you've avoided claiming it's non-sensical. So, it doesn't help demanding evidence from me if you're not willing to play by your own rules.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Let's make a deal here, KT. I'll quote you once you point me toward evidence of entitlement mentality being only a "subset" of feminism. I've asked for it repeatedly in this thread which you've avoided claiming it's non-sensical. So, it doesn't help demanding evidence from me if you're not willing to play by your own rules.

If it wasn't clear, in regards to this: "This is an example of a part of a current subset of feminist commentary I reject, which is a narrative style that seems primarily focused on rhetorical language, hyperbole, reactionism, and creating an us-vs-them mentality regarding feminism. It seems to be more about being "right", expressing outrage, and dictating thought, than it is on sincerely attempting to educate, provide awareness, and attempt to formulate rational and productive solutions."

The example I was referring to was the story you used in thread as an example of male entitlement, and more broadly, the subset of feminists who employ rhetorical tactics such as this in order to generate strong emotional responses, even though there are more likely reasons for the man's actions.

Does that clarify it at all for you? It's the best I can do.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If it wasn't clear, in regards to this: "This is an example of a part of a current subset of feminist commentary I reject, which is a narrative style that seems primarily focused on rhetorical language, hyperbole, reactionism, and creating an us-vs-them mentality regarding feminism. It seems to be more about being "right", expressing outrage, and dictating thought, than it is on sincerely attempting to educate, provide awareness, and attempt to formulate rational and productive solutions."

The example I was referring to was the story you used in thread as an example of male entitlement, and more broadly, the subset of feminists who employ rhetorical tactics such as this in order to generate strong emotional responses, even though there are more likely reasons for the man's actions.

Does that clarify it at all for you? It's the best I can do.

I wasn't asking for evidence pointing at your post and my post. I'm asking for other examples outside of this thread that supports your argument. Where else does this occur? And where are examples of feminism that you believe "sincerely attempt to educate, provide awareness, and attempt to formulate rational and productive solutions"? Basically, what do you see as "good" feminism and "bad" feminism through examples that exist outside of this thread?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I wasn't asking for evidence pointing at your post and my post. I'm asking for other examples outside of this thread that supports your argument.

What is my argument?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What is my argument?

You just spelled it out to me:

"This is an example of a part of a current subset of feminist commentary I reject, which is a narrative style that seems primarily focused on rhetorical language, hyperbole, reactionism, and creating an us-vs-them mentality regarding feminism. It seems to be more about being "right", expressing outrage, and dictating thought, than it is on sincerely attempting to educate, provide awareness, and attempt to formulate rational and productive solutions."

What other examples of this subset of commentary exist? And what examples of feminist commentary jive with your search for formulating rational and productive solutions? If there are examples to compare and contrast, I can have an idea of how you come to your conclusions.

Because at the moment, we're SO talking past each other. If my OP is disingenuous, I'd like to see how you come to that conclusion by showing me where commentary is NOT disingenuous in your opinion.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Because at the moment, we're SO talking past each other. If my OP is disingenuous, I'd like to see how you come to that conclusion by showing me where commentary is NOT disingenuous in your opinion.

Yes, in keeping with the actual subject of the thread, I don't need to provide counter examples to have the opinion that using the story as an example of male entitlement is disingenuous. My argument is that it's an illogical leap to attribute some type of broad societal entitlement to the case of shooting multiple people for not getting phone number. As in the example of the story I provided, there are just people out there who are mentally imbalanced and prone to violence, and blaming their crazy/violent actions on vague political concepts just doesn't add up.

It smacks of trying to smash the square peg of the story into the pre-defined round hole of male entitlement.

If your first thought after hearing this story is "male entitlement" and not "mentally imbalanced person," then I think you might want to step back from the rhetoric and buzzwords for awhile.

 

[idav]

This is not a rare occurrence. This is part of the culture. This story, my story, and other women's stories are not a rare statistic cherry-picked for supporting a victim mentality. This is an epidemic of violence against women where the burden of responsibility is placed squarely on women to ward off predatory behavior, and where women are to be blamed for violence against them, at least considered for how she provoked it.

I find their to be an epedemic of violence in general. Some cultures targe women more this is true but in one of those stories the guy was bat **** crazy, put quite simply. I have never heard of a guy thinking he is entitled to get peoples phone number. Just a tragic incident gender wasn't even the target when he starts shooting five people.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes, in keeping with the actual subject of the thread, I don't need to provide counter examples to have the opinion that using the story as an example of male entitlement is disingenuous. My argument is that it's an illogical leap to attribute some type of broad societal entitlement to the case of shooting multiple people for not getting phone number. As in the example of the story I provided, there are just people out there who are mentally imbalanced and prone to violence, and blaming their crazy/violent actions on vague political concepts just doesn't add up.

It smacks of trying to smash the square peg of the story into the pre-defined round hole of male entitlement.

This isn't about what you think you need to do. I have asked for outside examples to understand where you are coming from. Kilgore Trout Logic is insufficient here. You saying you don't need to doesn't help.

If your first thought after hearing this story is "male entitlement" and not "mentally imbalanced person," then I think you might want to step back from the rhetoric and buzzwords for awhile.

My first thought was another woman is dead. In the story, multiple witnesses showed the shooter was harassing the woman until 2am. When she and the group of friends left, the shooter grabbed and hit the woman. This is clearly a targeted approach.

Her fiancée began confronting the man, and a fight broke out. The man then shot the woman twice and THEN began shooting witnesses.

So I'm taking note of the behavior where there was a clear target, and all too many cases, women are targeted in harassment, assault/battery, and murder.

I also don't need to take any of your advice to step away. Especially when I've been doing the actual dirty work of involvement in peer escorting/volunteering in these situations. I'd like to help the people victimized and attacked. Which is what I've thankfully been finding the time to do. So it isn't personal that I'm dismissive to your argument. It's just completely counter to my experience in volunteering, what I've seen numerous times from survivors, and being a peer escort and support for court cases involving testimony from the perpetrators.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This isn't about what you think you need to do. I have asked for outside examples to understand where you are coming from. Kilgore Trout Logic is insufficient here. You saying you don't need to doesn't help.



My first thought was another woman is dead. In the story, multiple witnesses showed the shooter was harassing the woman until 2am. When she and the group of friends left, the shooter grabbed and hit the woman. This is clearly a targeted approach.

Her fiancée began confronting the man, and a fight broke out. The man then shot the woman twice and THEN began shooting witnesses.

So I'm taking note of the behavior where there was a clear target, and all too many cases, women are targeted in harassment, assault/battery, and murder.

I also don't need to take any of your advice to step away. Especially when I've been doing the actual dirty work of involvement in peer escorting/volunteering in these situations. I'd like to help the people victimized and attacked. Which is what I've thankfully been finding the time to do. So it isn't personal that I'm dismissive to your argument. It's just completely counter to my experience in volunteering, what I've seen numerous times from survivors, and being a peer escort and support for court cases involving testimony from the perpetrators.

That's fine, we'll have to agree to disagree on the likely factors of the story you posted.

 

[idav]

My first thought was another woman is dead. In the story, multiple witnesses showed the shooter was harassing the woman until 2am.

So I'm taking note of the behavior where there was a clear target, and all too many cases, women are targeted in harassment, assault/battery, and murder.

Thats quite tragic, at that point there should have been security and cops. Those people get booted the hell out. We dont wait till people are plastered out of there mind.

 

[Riverwolf]

I doubt it's the "vast majority" of men, but this particular issue does seem to be prevalent.

The issue I see is that males are taught from a young age that the only love they should receive is through sex with a female. It's a very damaging thing, but I don't see it being addressed.

Good point.

I, myself, was generally spared that aspect, thank the Gods, and so it's not at the forefront of my mind. But the idea of sex as a reward was impressed upon me as a child... I don't want to bring up the particular example as it will open up another can of worms that I want to leave out of this thread, just to keep things on topic.

Thinking about a lot of the media aimed at men that deals with how relationships with women are depicted, what you say does seem to be incredibly prevalent. Thing is... I don't want to go off topic, but I will say that pieces of what I've seen in young culture has the potential to subvert that.

 

[Father Heathen]

I would say that the culprit was both a misogynist and mentally ill.

 

[columbus]

Mass shooting kills mother of three, wounds five others - Fox 2 News Headlines

Elliot Rodgers was but one example of the entitlement culture where if a man wants sex, he should just be able to get it. And if he doesn't get it, somehow somewhere it's a woman's fault for not thinking of ways to give it to him so he doesn't kill people.

I remember a time when I was 15 years old, and I was at the movies with a couple of friends. I saw a group of skinheads approach me, and one recognized me from a parade we both were a part in. He started discussing how we both should get together for a date. With several of his friends around him looking at me waiting for an answer, and even though I was with 2 friends, I was nervous about what might happen if I rejected him. I began telling him how busy I was, and he continued pressing me by saying that if I was interested, that I would find a way to make time for him.

He told me to give him my phone number....that's right, he didn't ask, he told me to give it to him....and that's when I pulled the fake phone number tactic. It worked. He walked away with his friends saying he was going to give me a call. And for the moment, I felt safer. But I wound up not attending the movie theatre again for fear of being discovered that I lied to him and becoming a target.

I rearranged a part of my social life out of fear.

There is a big elephant in this thread.

The murderer in the link, the guy at the theater, and the many other guys who hit on women all have one thing in common. It is something women have as well. It's called "instinct".
Men are born with an instinct to chase women. Women are also born with an instinct to catch men. These are very basic, unconsciously, gut level behaviours that are very hard to train out of a human. Most men learn that it is wrong, eventually. Some better than others. Women,too, learn that leading a guy on is likely to turn out badly. One of the big downsides to sexual freedom and gender equality is that people are going to behave naturally even when it is immoral to do so. Because morality is learned behavior, and not everybody learns that well. Plus, the younger people haven't had the time to learn yet.
In other places and times, this obvious problem was dealt with in different ways. Gender segregation, chaperones, "barefoot and pregnant', "repressive sexual mores", the list is quite long. This stuff wasn't just to cage women or stop men from behaving naturally, it was a response to a problem in human nature that nobody had a better response to, and we still don't.

If every woman actually said what she meant, the problem would mostly be solved. But if a guy like the one you ran into outside the theater found that even one in ten women who say "No" really means "Maybe. Prove how much you want me.", he has to hit very hard on ten women to find the one he wants. And he will find her, as you and I both know. The reason men keep hitting on women is because women reward men with sex often enough to keep them trying.
You may not, but enough of your sisters do to keep the problem going.
Tom

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Here we go again...

Police: Suspect Slashed Woman In Neck In Jamaica, Queens « CBS New York

She turned away from him, and it was seeming like she was trying to ignore him. Attacked from behind with a knife cutting her throat.