Women and men: Your bill of rights

[Guitar's Cry]

What has feminism done to help males?

It has helped break down the traditional gender roles that also imprison men. Because we have defined roles for each gender, men must also follow these roles. Since feminism now allows women to go outside these roles, so can men. All the things that men were once chastised for (and still are to an extent, unfortunately) like crying, showing vulnerability, being effeminate, being romantic, etc., are now no longer restricted. Especially for homosexual men is this true. Without the negative stigma that the traditional roles engendered (sorry, had to!), homosexual men can more easily be who they are.

 

[Pardus]

Since feminism now allows women to go outside these roles, so can men.

Nice assumption.

All the things that men were once chastised for (and still are to an extent, unfortunately) like crying, showing vulnerability, being effeminate, being romantic, etc., are now no longer restricted.

How can you be no longer restricted, but still be restricted to an extent?

Especially for homosexual men is this true. Without the negative stigma that the traditional roles engendered (sorry, had to!), homosexual men can more easily be who they are.

I'll agree that homosexual men arn't considered men by society at large.

 

[Zephyr]

Ah yes. Women acting like men and men acting like women. My girlfriend and I leave that for the bedroom.

 

[Pardus]

Ah yes. Women acting like men and men acting like women. My girlfriend and I leave that for the bedroom.

You miss the entire point.

It's about there being no such thing as "acting like a man" or "acting like a woman".

 

[spacemonkey]

Why can't we just accept the fact that men and women are differant and move on. If you feel that women and men are equally suited to do every job then you sorely mistaken. I mean no offense to women, but many tradionally masculine jobs are that way for a reason, they require a level of phyisical strength that most women can not attain due to their lower levels of testosterone (and subsiquently lower muscle mass). There are not many women I know who can carry a 200 lb man out of a burning building. Lets look at the Army's PT requirements for men and women (I'll just provide a link) http://www.chattanoogarecruiting.com/pt_requirements.htm. Trust me, there is good reason why women are excluded from many roles in the military, the lives of your fellow soldiers may depend on your ability to move a heavy piece of equipment into position.

 

[Tigress]

The idea, spacemonkey, is that if there are women able to perform such duties generally restricted to men (and there are), then they should not be barred from doing so. A better standard would be, or should be, 'each according to his or her own ability.' There are men out there no more suited to heavy-lifting and whatnot than you claim the average woman to be (and no, not all of them are homosexual, either).

 

[Pardus]

So spacemonkey, if women weew allowed in the military would it be acceptable that they get paid less?

Obviously they can't do equal work, therefore equal work for equal pay demands that they get paid less.

But then what about men who can't lift as much as other men?

Does it not get a little complicated.

 

[Mister Emu]

I do not accept some of your proposed "rights", and deny that they are indeed such things...

 

[spacemonkey]

So spacemonkey, if women weew allowed in the military would it be acceptable that they get paid less?

Obviously they can't do equal work, therefore equal work for equal pay demands that they get paid less.

But then what about men who can't lift as much as other men?

Does it not get a little complicated.

Women are allowed into the military and they get equal pay based on their pay grade, they are just not allowed into certain jobs classifications, most of which are infantry type front line combatant postions. The average infantry soldier carries around 70 lbs of personal gear (not including squad gear like mg ammuniton, mortars, anti tank weapons, etc.) and must be able to carry that gear for miles if needed.

While the rare female might be able to physically do all of these things, I would still have questions about her ability to pull the trigger when the moment of truth comes. Aside from front line combatant infantry jobs, I can't think of another profession that is barred to women based on sex alone (perhaps professional football player, but most men won't do that either). I gave the example of fire fighter earlier, but as far as I know women can try out for the fire dept., its just that most can't pass the stringent phyisical test required.

 

[Gentoo]

Honestly, I'm a little insulted by that. No, I can't do heavy lifting, it's not because I'm a woman or I'm physically unable, it's because I'll detatch my retinas if I try. I'm sorry, but I really don't like it when someone says I can't do something, it doesn't matter if it's true or not, I'll be the final judge as to what I can or cannot do.

 

[spacemonkey]

Honestly, I'm a little insulted by that. No, I can't do heavy lifting, it's not because I'm a woman or I'm physically unable, it's because I'll detatch my retinas if I try. I'm sorry, but I really don't like it when someone says I can't do something, it doesn't matter if it's true or not, I'll be the final judge as to what I can or cannot do.

Be that as it may, in the military you are not an individual. The lives of your fellow soldiers may depent on your phyisicall abilities, plain and simple. When you join the military you give up many of your civil rights (as you are no longer a civilian) and one of those rights is protection from sexual discrimination.

 

[Gentoo]

Be that as it may, in the military you are not an individual. The lives of your fellow soldiers may depent on your phyisicall abilities, plain and simple. When you join the military you give up many of yout civil rights (as you are no longer a civilian) and one of those rights is protection from sexual discrimination.

I understand, hence one reason I'm not in the military. I just wanted to say that things are the way they are for more than just one reason.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

I'd like to say something on a personal note here in reference to the OP: I haven't had this much fun in writing a post in quite some time. It was sheer exhiliaration, to tell the truth.

Why? Because it's very, very liberating to live as a man who is largely free of sexual stereotypes, to be able to treat women and men as individuals instead of whether they have XX or XY chromosomes. Gentlemen, I know it sounds weird, but the whole paradox in this matter is that the more of your power that you trade in, the more that you get back in return. Why? Because it takes work, lots of work, to maintain the inequality that men have over women, and it wears out both sexes in the process. Far better to treat humans as...*gasp* humans, and not have ourselves waste all that effort on destructive means!

Lastly, the reason I'm not going to play with some of the individual questions is this: Patriarchy is not based on logic. It's all about power. Power of man over woman, and ultimately, man under man. Dodging this hard-to-stomach issue doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

 

[Sonic247]

I'll add one to the list for men and women you have the right to have a heart. You complain about the way the world is but almost all the posts here are filled with either outright hatred or hatred disguised with flattery. The reason this is even so complicated is because men and women don't know how to love one another but are tossed back and forth by there own lust and the guilt of the broken hearts they have left in their path. Not only does a women who is pregnant have no right to take her childs life it to her own hands but when the child is born she has the responsibility to love and take care of it, and not sacrifice it to false gods such as money, or career or sex. This is a mess that is beyond repair except for faith in Jesus who suffered for all these things and defeated them when he rose again from the dead so that if we come to him by faith we can live.

 

[McBell]

I do not accept some of your proposed "rights", and deny that they are indeed such things...

Perhaps you could explain further the ones you disagree with and why.

6. Becoming pregnant is not a requirement to carry the pregnancy all the way through.
Does that include the right to demand child support payments even if the male did not want the child? knowing there is a possibly of financial entrapment?

Before I get into this area, i ask that you clarify your position.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Nice list.



I think Pardus simply has the cahunas to ask the difficult questions that not many people want to face............the fact that when it comes to bringing new life into this world, it just so happens that people get screwed when the pregnancy is unplanned (forgive the pun).



Give men the opportunity to get out of parenthood, and the mother is burdened. Give women the opportunity to receive child support from a man who never wanted to be a father, and he's burdened. Where I do take issue with Pardus is that if the government were to allow a non-custodial parent to easily jump ship from any type of financial or custodial resposibility for the child he or she produced, then give a better solution for ensuring the well-being for the child.



I understand that taking responsibility as a parent is tough, and many times it would be nifty if parents had more time/space/money for their own lives, but somebody's got to protect, feed, and guide children through life. It's not supposed to be fun. It's by far the hardest job in the world because it demands selflessness at almost every turn (kinda like marriage, but that's another topic).



My counter-point would be this: if you'd like an easy out from being a parent, would you have respected your own parent if he or she did the same to you as a child?




Still a good list. I am against abortion, so I disagree with one of the rights listed for women, but overall it's very good! I give it an "A." :yes:





Peace,
Mystic

 

[Booko]

I would make the following changes.
>Women:
>1. You have the right to make the same salary that a man would at your job.
Does that include perferencial treatment? like no heavy lifting?

One assumes the person is capable of doing a job. There was a woman operator at the mill where my father worked who could easily lift the hundred pound rolls of paper to load the machine she was responsible.

When my father was diagnosed with heart problems and had a lifting restriction of 40 lbs, no one suggested he should relinquish his job. He was embarrased to have the woman operator load his paper a couple of times, but quickly got over that. If she were a guy, it would be understood it was just helping out, which was expected.

>6. Becoming pregnant is not a requirement to carry the pregnancy all the way through.
Does that include the right to demand child support payments even if the male did not want the child? knowing there is a possibly of financial entrapment?

There should probably be something added to the men's rights to have an equal chance of getting custody of the kids. I have no idea why it's just automatically assumed that fathers are not as capable of raising the kids. I've seen far too many kooky moms get the kids, when they would've probably been better with dad.

 

[Booko]

Men:
2. You have the right to be attracted to girls by things other than the size of their breasts or their butts.

Reason #18563 why "women" should not be referred to as "girls."

Geez, you make the guys out to be a bunch of pedophiles! Please don't do that!

 

[Booko]

Ok i'm throwing down a gauntlet, take me on in this debate, anyone who isn't a coward.

If you want to debate that point, there's a whole nother thread about it that CiscoKid referred to. Or start a new one. Please don't derail this one. :cover:

 

[Booko]

While the rare female might be able to physically do all of these things, I would still have questions about her ability to pull the trigger when the moment of truth comes.

Been there. Done that.